Homework Responses for Hal Bourne's Greek Myths students.
This page is intended for homework responses for Hal Bourne's Greek Myths students.
When directed to do so by the calendar, please respond to the questions listed below. You can either respond to the question or to one of your peers' comments.
Wednesday, December 1, 2010
RWR #4
Enter your RWR here. See handout for instructions.
"Oh no--I fear another immortal weaves a snare to trap me" p. 163 I think it is really weird that Odysseus doesn't trust Leucothea when she hands him the immortal scarf that, if he ties it around his waist, will prevent him from drowning in the ocean while he swims to the land. In this situation, it would be a much better choice to do what the goddess says. If she has good intentions, it is so stupid for him to brush away her help, which might be the only thing to save him. And, even if she has bad intentions and wants Odysseus to die, she, as an immortal, can always find another way to make him suffer. So it would have made perfect sense for our hero to immediately trust the goddess, which is what he ends up doing anyway.
"'Farewell! But if you only knew, down deep, what pains are fated to fill your cup before you reach that shore, you'd stay right here, preside in our house with me, and be immortal.'" p. 159 This is just one example of foreshadowing of the multiple I noticed in Book 5 of the Odyssey. Many of the immortals that appear in this book speak of how Odysseus will be forced to undergo a lot of suffering in order to journey home, but they all agree that he WILL return safely to his wife and his island. I thought it was interesting that Homer chose to tell the reader so early on in the book that Odysseus ends up returning to Ithaca, instead of leaving the reader wondering for the entire story until the actual homecoming. Question: Why doesn't Odysseus trust Calypso when he offers to help him journey home?
“In the nights, true, he’d sleep with her in the arching cave—he had no choice—unwilling lover alongside lover all too willing.”
Musing: I find it interesting that even though Odysseus spends every daylight hour of each day sobbing and weeping on the headland, at night he always retreats back to the cave and sleeps with Calypso. Later on in the book he also states that Calypso is more beautiful than his wife as well and that she surpasses his wife in many ways. Although this quote does say that he has no choice, it makes me question the true character of Odysseus. Everyone holds him to be so wise and honorable, yet he is cheating on his wife.
“Hear me, lord, whoever you are, I’ve come to you, the answer to all my prayers—rescue me from the sea, the Sea-lord’s curse!...and the god stemmed his current, held his surge at once and smoothing out the swells before Odysseus now…”
Musing: I’m actually a little confused about this quote. First of all, I’m not really sure why Poseidon is so enraged at Odysseus. As far as I can remember, I don’t recall Odysseus doing anything bad enough to make Poseidon this angry for so long. Second, I’d also like to know why this prayer makes the waves calm. Odysseus is basically just asking Poseidon to take pity on him and for some reason this convinces Poseidon to stop the storm. Why did Odysseus’ words have this affect?
Discussion Question: Why does Odysseus “have no choice” when it comes to sleeping with Calypso?
Pg. 135: “if only that Odysseus sported with those suitors, a blood wedding, a quick death would take the lot!”
Musing: I found all of these references interesting and revealing about the culture of the Greeks. These suitors who fight for Penelope, Odysseus’s wife have done nothing wrong in the sense of hurting Odysseus. It’s interesting that he would choose to kill each and every one of them. Would he truly take on them all in a fight, or kill each in their sleep? If it were the fight, would he be so powerful that not one of them could kill him? Or would they not try for fear of rejection from society and hatred. I suppose they would simply have to let themselves be killed upon his return. It also makes me angry that Homer builds up Odysseus’s magnificence so much, but still refuses to inform us of the epic journey on which he embarks. We are stuck living the boring life of his not-as-spectacular teenage son who is living in the large shadow of his father.
Pg. 131: “Into the mixing-bowl from which they drank their wine she slipped a drug, heart’s-ease, dissolving anger, magic to make us all forget our pains…”
Musing: It’s interesting that Helen secretly slips a feel-good drug (possibly opium?) into the wine. Nowadays, not only would that be thought of as extremely inappropriate, invasive, and rude behavior, but anyone who takes those sort of feel-good drugs is thought of as an addict or abuser. It’s interesting that drugs such as the ones that make you feel happiness were used at parties as recreational mood-improvers. It makes wonder why alcohol has become so prominent socially and drugs like that one have drifted so far away from that type of behavior. I can’t actually think of reasons why those sorts of drugs would be good social-gathering enhancers.
Will Odysseus truly kill every suitor when he returns? Will they fight back?
"'But now the whirlwinds have ripped him away, no fame for him! He's lost and gone now - out of sight, out of mind - and I... he's left me tears and grief.'" (Page 85) Musing: I chose this quote for two reasons. Firstly because they use the saying 'out of sight, out of mind,' which is still used today. I didn't realize how old the saying was. Secondly, I chose this quote because I think that Odysseus should still have fame, even though he is currently lost. Wouldn't he? He played a crucial part in the war, especially at the end when they finally conquered the Trojans using the Trojan Horse that he built, so it would make sense that he would still be remembered and would have fame even though he is missing and possibly dead.
"'So go right up to Nestor, breaker of horses. We'll make him yield the secrets of his heart. Press him yourself to tell the whole truth.'" (Page 108) Musing: I chose this quote because Mentor (Athena) is acting as a mentor to guide Telemachus and help him talk to Nestor, while her name is also Mentor. She has acted as a mentor for Telemachus a lot so far in the story. Is this just a coincidence, or does the word for mentor come from Greek?
Clarifying Question: Are the suitors trying to marry Penelope for Penelope or to be the King of Ithaca?
"If only she'd favor you, tend you with all her heart... Hope as I will, that day will never dawn... not even if the gods should will it so." Pg. 114 At this point in the Odyssey, Nestor, Telemachus and Athena (disguised as Mentor) are having a conversation about how Athena loved Odysseus. I find it odd how Telemachus just bluntly states that he hopes that Athena will never help him. Of course, Athena is insulted and snaps at Telemachus for saying that. I'm pretty sure he knows that Mentor is Athena so it leads me to believe that he is being sarcastic to her. It is rare to see mortals treating the gods as such and this event is especially unusual since he was awestruck by her in the previous book.
"Once you've dined we'll ask who you are." Pg. 126 Many of the warriors, such as Menelaus, seem quick to anger. It doesn't make sense to me that Menelaus would tell strangers that he'll question them later. Especially because of xeníê, the obligation to protect those you dine with, I would have thought that Menelaus would want to learn more about his guests, Telemachus and Nestor's son, before inviting them to dinner. If they turned out to be horrible people, he couldn't do anything about it.
Question: Is Telemachus being sarcastic to Athena or is he truly rejecting her help?
"Hard-hearted you are, gods! You unrivaled lords of jealousy- scandalized when goddesses sleep with mortals, openly, even when one has made the man her husband." p. 156 line 130
Musing: I find this point of Calypso's very interesting because of the number of times, in the myths we read, a god lusts for a mortal. For example, as in prometheus and Io, Zeus is the one who has to hide his relationship with a mortal. Again in Daphne Apollo chases down this mortal and tries to sleep with her. So while Calypso rants about the problem of goddesses sleeping with mortals, there never seems to be a problem (except with Hera) when Zeus lusts after Io, Apollo tries to take Daphne's virginity, and Cupid marries Psyche. Even with the gods, there is a gender gap that underscores the ideals of greek culture during that time period.
"... a tremendous roller swept him toward the rocky coast where he'd have been flayed alive, his bones crushed if the bright-eyed goddess Pallas had not inspired him now." p. 165, line 468
Connection: This is similar to the story of Jason and the golden fleece. Medea helps him to escape all of his perils. Had it not been for the sorceress, Jason would have found himself drowned or killed immediately, much as Odysseus would have been killed on the rocks or drowned by Poseidon. On another occasion later on Athena 'inspires' him again. It is interesting to note in the two stories the influence of supernatural powers on these characters and their involvement in mortal lives.
question: Why does Athena have such a strong connection to Odysseus' family?
"Ah how shameless- the way these mortals blame the gods. From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes but they themselves, with their own reckless ways, compound their pains beyond their proper share." Pg78 Here Zeus puts the blame on the mortals which is interesting because it is actually the gods that have all the power and all the influence. In fact throughout the Odyssey the gods dictate the lives of the humans. For example when Athena take the form of Odysseus's past friends and guides Telemachus and gives him advice. Maybe without Athena Telemachus would never have had the confidence to go on his journey. Throughout the epic we see Gods taking favorites and aiding their favorite human, which is certainly helpful but when a god is crossed there are terrible consequences. And the question that comes to mind is, how would the Trojan war or Odysseus'/Telemachus' journey be different without the influence of the Gods?
"Just think of all the hospitality we enjoyed at the hands of other men before we made it home, and god save us from such hard treks in years to come. Quick unhitch their team. And bring them in, strangers, guests, to share our flowing feast." Here we see Xenia being displayed. Being hospitable was a huge part of the culture. We see that exemplified not only in this part of the Odyssey but also in Baucis and Philemon, Pegasus and Bellerophon and The Golden Fleece. Which leaves me wondering how can people in these horribly graphic epics (mostly the Iliad) be so violent to their enemies and so polite to their guests? Why so hospitable?
“ When young Dawn with her rose-red fingers shone once more…” pg. 123
Every time Homer has been describing the sun rising in the morning he uses this metaphor about rose-red fingers. So far, I haven’t noticed as many metaphors in The Odyssey as there were in the Iliad, so I find it interesting that he has used this particular quote multiple times. I have also noticed that the Odyssey doesn’t have as many extended metaphors as there were in the Iliad.
“No, by god, the true son of my good friend Odysseus won’t bed down on a ship’s deck, not while I’m alive or my sons are left at home to host our guests” pg. 118
Xenia seems to be a major theme so far in the Odyssey. Each place that Telemachus has gone he has been treated with incredible hospitality. When he gets to Sparta, Menelaus doesn’t even ask him his name or why he came before he offered him food, warm clothing, a bath, and a place to stay. This hospitality was not seen very much in the Iliad, but it is seen other places in Greek Mythology, for example, in Bauchus and Philemon. Bauchus and Philemon were two of the poorest people in the land, but they still offered the gods entrance into their home. It is interesting that neither the rich or the poor feel more obliged than the other to welcome people into their homes.
Why does Athena have such a vested interest first in Odysseus and then Telemachus and the rest of their family and their wellbeing?
“Odysseus journeys home—the exile must return. But not in the convoy of the gods or mortal men. No, on a lashed, makeshift raft and wrung with pains, on the twentieth day he will make his landfall…” (153 line 35). Thoughts: I don’t understand why Zeus even makes the point of allowing Odysseus to go home. Never before has Zeus allowed it and is only doing so because Athena asked. I’m sure Athena had asked before Telemachus went in search of his father because Odysseus had always been her favorite. If he hadn’t freed Odysseus before, why would he now when somebody goes in search of him? Especially if Telemachus would probably find him eventually. I think Athena should just lead Telemachus to Odysseus because he has already left to look for him.
“Hard-hearted you are, you gods! you unrivaled lords of jealousy—scandalized when goddesses sleep with mortals, openly, even when one has made the man her husband” (156 line 130). Thoughts: I think Calypso makes an excellent point here. The male gods can do whatever they want and sleep with anybody the choose. The male gods don’t get patronized for sleeping with moral women. I would think the goddesses would be treated the same, but no. There is massive gender discrimination among the gods. Maybe that is because that is how the human race was at that time. But I suppose even today the gender difference is the same. I just think Calypso called Hermes out, and I doubt anybody had ever done that before, mortal or goddess.
Question: Why didn’t Zeus send Hermes to Calypso to free Odysseus before Telemachus went to look for his father?
"he stole Atrides' wife, he murdered the warlord coming home from Troy, though he knew it meant his own total ruin" (1.42-44) I thought this quote was interesting for two reasons. First, the dispute on who actually killed Agamemnon. Some claim that it was Aegisthus alone, others say that Clytemnestra helped plot to kill her husband, and others still say that Clytemnestra helped in the physical deed of killing her husband. This version seems to imply that Aegisthus acted of his own accord, because he "stole" the wife of Agamemnon. But what would motivate a man to his total ruin, if not love in this case? Also it's a little ridiculous that Zeus accuses Aegisthus of stealing Clytemnestra when Agamemnon physically carried Cassandra out of Troy, but that goes to show the importance of géras and battle in Greek culture. Aegisthus' act was seen as selfish because he had not won Clytemnestra fair and square.
"A dark wooded island, and there a goddess makes her home, a daughter of Atlas, wicked Titan" (1.61-62). Why is Calypso on the island? Is it because of her choice, her misdeeds, or even her father's misdeeds? If she was allowed to leave, she would most likely have followed Odysseus because she loves him. This leads me to think that she is imprisoned on the island of Ogygia, and not allowed to leave.
Did Athena win the argument with Zeus because she is his favorite child or because she persuaded him with her wisdom? Or both?
"And with all the poise he had, Telemachus replied... ...remember his story now, tell me the truth." book 4 line 352 I think that this quote is a good example of how Telemachus is coming of age. He shows that he is not scared to confront Menelaus. Telemachus also has to leave his home, and protection of his mother to get to the kingdom of Menelaus. What he asks for is news about his father and wether he has died or not.
"'You should have offered Zeus and the other gods a handsome sacrifice, then embarked, if you ever hoped for a rapid journey home across the wine-dark sea.'" book 4 line 530 This quote shows that the gods want the heroes to sacrifice to them more than they did. It shows how rushed Menelaus was to return home after the long war. He forgot to pay proper sacrifice to the gods and now they will not let him return home.
"Her mind in torment, wheeling like some lion at bay, dreading gangs of hunters closing their cunning ring around him for the finish" Book 4 line 884 Musing: This quote really showed me what goes through a mother's head when her offspring part from their home. The pressure of her son's absence builds up along with the threat of the suitors, making life for her very stressful.
"He slipped into the enemy's city, roamed its streets - all disguised, a totally different man, a beggar ... That's how Odysseus infiltrated Troy, and no one knew him at all" Book 4 line 132 Musing: This quote really shows how much the comrades of Odysseus respect him. Telemachus the son of Odysseus, talks with all of his father's comrades to see where his father ended up. All of them praise Odysseus for his cunning, courage, skill in battle, and his reflectiveness on all possible futures. As a commander his skill was unparalleled.
Question: What if Telemachus killed the suitors that were the root of the uprising that was happening back in Ithyca?
“‘Think: not one of the people whom he ruled remembers Odysseus now, that godlike man, and kindly as a father to his own children.’” p 152
I think that this quote is significant because it is clear that it is frowned upon for a mortal to be compared to a god. The fact that it was Athena, a goddess herself, who compared Odysseus to one of her own shows a different side. In most of the myths that we have read, if a mortal was trying to prove themselves as good or better than a god, they were brutally punished. I think that it was acceptable in this case that Odysseus was compared to a god because it was not him showing hubris, it was a goddess believing him worthy.
“She gave him a heavy bronze ax that fit his grip, both blades well-honed, with a fine olive haft lashed firm to its head.” p 159
The most important thing to note in this quote is the use of olive wood. Olive wood is one of Athena’s symbols and I believe the use of wood shows that she will be guiding and protecting Odysseus throughout his journey. We also know that olive wood is Odysseus’ wood due to her protection, and the fact that Calypso realizes this and gives him an ax made of it shows that she cares about him.
No, by god, the true son of my good friend Odysseus won’t bed down on a ship’s deck, not while I’m alive or my sons are left at home to host our guests” pg. 118 Where ever Telemachus goes he is treated with amazing hospitality. Which is Xenia. But in most of the other myths and parts of the illiad people aren't treated with such Xenia
"And with all the poise he had, Telemachus replied... ...remember his story now, tell me the truth." book 4 line 352 This shows Telemachuss coming of age and how when he leaves home he isn't afraid to confront his fears. Like confronting oddesius.
Question: how is the hostility between Telemachus and Odysseus compared to the one between Achilles and Agamemnon .
“In the nights, true, he’d sleep with her in the arching cave—he had no choice—unwilling lover alongside lover all too willing.” Musing: I find it very interesting that Odysseus can be so distraught during the day, and then proceed to have sexual relations with his own captor every night. Thought the quote says unwilling lover, it does not take so much effort to force him to bed. I understand that people have needs, but every night is more than fulfilling basic biological instincts.
"‘where Calypso lives, with ordered hair, a dread goddess, and she received me and loved me excessively and cared for me, and she promised to make me an immortal and all my days to be ageless, but never so could she win over the heart within me." Musing: Also in strange dichotomy between the happenings. On one hand, he calls her 'dread,' on the other, he says that she loved him excessively. It still seems so strange that Odysseus could have that kind of situation for so long and be separated from his family and not take Calypso up on her offer.
Question: would you have stayed with Calypso given the choice?
"which one of you blocks my way here, keeps me from my voyage? How can i cross the swarming sea and reach home at last?" (136)
Musing: I do believe that it's true odysseus is blocked from going home. In class we debated if he really was blocked from going home because at night he would still go back to the caves and sleep with Calypso. But i think that this is just a natural response because he's been trapped their for so long. And even if he were to sneak away at night, he knows that he will die out at sea because Poseidon doesn't like Odysseus.
"But now my boy, my darling boy -- the whirlwinds have ripped him out of the halls without a trace" (147)
I don't believe that Penelope should be surprised that her son has run away from her. Growing up, Telemachus probably heard many great stories about his father but was never able to see him. So after many years, it is understandable that he would run away especially when theirs a god encouraging him. Also Penelope hasn't payed much attention to Telemachus, rather she is paying more attention to the suitors. Telemachus probably feels alone and isolated.
Question: Do you think Telemachus would have searched for his father if Athena hadn't of encouraged him?
“Help yourselves to food, and welcome! once you’ve dined we’ll ask who you are.” (126)
Musing: I think that this quote really shows how important xenia is to Greek society. Menelaus truly does not care who is eating at his table,he cares so little he even tells them not to tell him who they are until they have finished eating. I find it very interesting that they will eat with anyone and treat them as a friend without any consideration of who they really are.
“I yearned to sail back home again! I grieved too late for the madness Aphrodite sent me, luring me there, far from my dear land my bridal bed, my husband too, a man who lacked for neither brains nor beauty.” 132
Musing: I really like that we get to see Helens perspective on the war, how she didn’t have any affection towards the Trojan and when they failed she wasn’t sad but instead happy. I like that we get to see that the war had a huge effect on her and that is was not an easy experience for her. I like that we see that she regretted some of the things she has done, I think it adds more depth to her character.
Question: Why do you think xenia is so important to their culture even if it could have negative side effects?
"When a father's gone, his son takes much abuse in a house where no one comes to his defense. So with Telemachus now. His father's gone. No men at home will shield him from the worst." (page 129) -Telemachus was not the only child that was left at home because of the war. I wonder how the mothers dealt with this. Did they primarily care for the child or did servants? To have a son raised up in a household where he sees men chasing after his own mother must be hard. Telemachus had no male role model to look up to. All he could rely on were the stories he heard of his father. He seems to have so much pride and love for a father he never knew. I am impressed by how he stood up to the men in his house and isn't like any of them.
“He’s no mean man, not with a build like that… Look at his thighs, his legs, and what a pair of arms—his massive neck, his big, rippling strength!” (Page 195) -The Romans put a lot of extra emphasis on the build of a man. A large proportion of the men are described as being muscular, I cannot think of a time when they describe a man who isn’t. I find it interesting that a person’s build can affect the way people view them as an individual. This is not the first example I have read that a strong man means that he is a nice one. Why should/would the size of his muscles determine how he is as a person? I don’t think it makes any sense. It might mean that they are hardworking but even then you can’t prove that.
•Is Athena described to me “built like a man” because she is the goddess wisdom and warfare?
"When young Dawn with her rose-red fingers shone once more...as the sun sank and the roads of the world grew dark" (page 123). -In the Odyssey there are multiple times where the a story opens and ends the same way. In most cases this would be too receptive to have but I think in the Odyssey it adds to it rather than take away because he changes it enough. Homer tends to do this in other pieces of work. In both the Iliad and the Odyssey they practically open the same way.
"lost and gone so long now-dead or alive, who knows? How they must mourn him too, Laertes, the old man, and self-possessed Penelope. Telemachus as well, the boy he left a babe in arms at home." (page 128) -Of off the mortal women written about in the iliad and Odyssey I believe that Penelope is the strongest. She doesn't let the men take control of her. She is smart and quick and is committed. She loves her husband and son more than anything. The other women written about often seem like they have "no control", or at least that is the way it is shown. I understand women didn't have many rights back then but Penelope is a fighter which is why in the end she ends up back with her husband. Which is also saying a lot considering how long it took her to wait her Odysseus, while other women are being swept away while they have someone to protect her. Penelope is proven to be independent and steadfast.
"But while I roamed those lands, amassing a fortune, a stranger killed my brother, blind to the danger, duped blind--thanks to the cunning of his cursed, murderous queen! So I rule all of this wealth with no great joy" (127). I thought this was a very powerful quote. I liked how it talked about how even with power and great wealth or fortune a person can have absolutely no joy or happiness in life. The wording of this was moving and I enjoyed reading it.
"Kill me then with a bronze knife-no mercy-or let me live,here in the palace- I'll hide nothing from you now! I knew it all, I gave him all he asked for, bread and mellow wine, but he made me take a binding oath that I, I wouldn't tell you, no, not till ten or a dozen days had passed of you missed the lad yourself and learned he'd gone.so tears would never mar your lovely face" (148). This is a quote where the nurse, Eurycleia is begging for forgiveness for not coming forward. This quote talks about how powerful and binding that an oath can be between a powerful person and a not as powerful person. A person's role in society can impact how much respect and fear they can instill in others. Question: Are there more nurses than just Eurycleia?
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ReplyDelete"Oh no--I fear another immortal weaves a snare to trap me"
ReplyDeletep. 163
I think it is really weird that Odysseus doesn't trust Leucothea when she hands him the immortal scarf that, if he ties it around his waist, will prevent him from drowning in the ocean while he swims to the land. In this situation, it would be a much better choice to do what the goddess says. If she has good intentions, it is so stupid for him to brush away her help, which might be the only thing to save him. And, even if she has bad intentions and wants Odysseus to die, she, as an immortal, can always find another way to make him suffer. So it would have made perfect sense for our hero to immediately trust the goddess, which is what he ends up doing anyway.
"'Farewell! But if you only knew, down deep, what pains are fated to fill your cup before you reach that shore, you'd stay right here, preside in our house with me, and be immortal.'"
p. 159
This is just one example of foreshadowing of the multiple I noticed in Book 5 of the Odyssey. Many of the immortals that appear in this book speak of how Odysseus will be forced to undergo a lot of suffering in order to journey home, but they all agree that he WILL return safely to his wife and his island. I thought it was interesting that Homer chose to tell the reader so early on in the book that Odysseus ends up returning to Ithaca, instead of leaving the reader wondering for the entire story until the actual homecoming.
Question: Why doesn't Odysseus trust Calypso when he offers to help him journey home?
“In the nights, true, he’d sleep with her in the arching cave—he had no choice—unwilling lover alongside lover all too willing.”
ReplyDeleteMusing: I find it interesting that even though Odysseus spends every daylight hour of each day sobbing and weeping on the headland, at night he always retreats back to the cave and sleeps with Calypso. Later on in the book he also states that Calypso is more beautiful than his wife as well and that she surpasses his wife in many ways. Although this quote does say that he has no choice, it makes me question the true character of Odysseus. Everyone holds him to be so wise and honorable, yet he is cheating on his wife.
“Hear me, lord, whoever you are, I’ve come to you, the answer to all my prayers—rescue me from the sea, the Sea-lord’s curse!...and the god stemmed his current, held his surge at once and smoothing out the swells before Odysseus now…”
Musing: I’m actually a little confused about this quote. First of all, I’m not really sure why Poseidon is so enraged at Odysseus. As far as I can remember, I don’t recall Odysseus doing anything bad enough to make Poseidon this angry for so long. Second, I’d also like to know why this prayer makes the waves calm. Odysseus is basically just asking Poseidon to take pity on him and for some reason this convinces Poseidon to stop the storm. Why did Odysseus’ words have this affect?
Discussion Question: Why does Odysseus “have no choice” when it comes to sleeping with Calypso?
Pg. 135: “if only that Odysseus sported with those suitors, a blood wedding, a quick death would take the lot!”
ReplyDeleteMusing: I found all of these references interesting and revealing about the culture of the Greeks. These suitors who fight for Penelope, Odysseus’s wife have done nothing wrong in the sense of hurting Odysseus. It’s interesting that he would choose to kill each and every one of them. Would he truly take on them all in a fight, or kill each in their sleep? If it were the fight, would he be so powerful that not one of them could kill him? Or would they not try for fear of rejection from society and hatred. I suppose they would simply have to let themselves be killed upon his return. It also makes me angry that Homer builds up Odysseus’s magnificence so much, but still refuses to inform us of the epic journey on which he embarks. We are stuck living the boring life of his not-as-spectacular teenage son who is living in the large shadow of his father.
Pg. 131: “Into the mixing-bowl from which they drank their wine she slipped a drug, heart’s-ease, dissolving anger, magic to make us all forget our pains…”
Musing: It’s interesting that Helen secretly slips a feel-good drug (possibly opium?) into the wine. Nowadays, not only would that be thought of as extremely inappropriate, invasive, and rude behavior, but anyone who takes those sort of feel-good drugs is thought of as an addict or abuser. It’s interesting that drugs such as the ones that make you feel happiness were used at parties as recreational mood-improvers. It makes wonder why alcohol has become so prominent socially and drugs like that one have drifted so far away from that type of behavior. I can’t actually think of reasons why those sorts of drugs would be good social-gathering enhancers.
Will Odysseus truly kill every suitor when he returns? Will they fight back?
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ReplyDelete"'But now the whirlwinds have ripped him away, no fame for him! He's lost and gone now - out of sight, out of mind - and I... he's left me tears and grief.'" (Page 85)
ReplyDeleteMusing: I chose this quote for two reasons. Firstly because they use the saying 'out of sight, out of mind,' which is still used today. I didn't realize how old the saying was. Secondly, I chose this quote because I think that Odysseus should still have fame, even though he is currently lost. Wouldn't he? He played a crucial part in the war, especially at the end when they finally conquered the Trojans using the Trojan Horse that he built, so it would make sense that he would still be remembered and would have fame even though he is missing and possibly dead.
"'So go right up to Nestor, breaker of horses. We'll make him yield the secrets of his heart. Press him yourself to tell the whole truth.'" (Page 108)
Musing: I chose this quote because Mentor (Athena) is acting as a mentor to guide Telemachus and help him talk to Nestor, while her name is also Mentor. She has acted as a mentor for Telemachus a lot so far in the story. Is this just a coincidence, or does the word for mentor come from Greek?
Clarifying Question: Are the suitors trying to marry Penelope for Penelope or to be the King of Ithaca?
"If only she'd favor you, tend you with all her heart... Hope as I will, that day will never dawn... not even if the gods should will it so."
ReplyDeletePg. 114
At this point in the Odyssey, Nestor, Telemachus and Athena (disguised as Mentor) are having a conversation about how Athena loved Odysseus. I find it odd how Telemachus just bluntly states that he hopes that Athena will never help him. Of course, Athena is insulted and snaps at Telemachus for saying that. I'm pretty sure he knows that Mentor is Athena so it leads me to believe that he is being sarcastic to her. It is rare to see mortals treating the gods as such and this event is especially unusual since he was awestruck by her in the previous book.
"Once you've dined we'll ask who you are."
Pg. 126
Many of the warriors, such as Menelaus, seem quick to anger. It doesn't make sense to me that Menelaus would tell strangers that he'll question them later. Especially because of xeníê, the obligation to protect those you dine with, I would have thought that Menelaus would want to learn more about his guests, Telemachus and Nestor's son, before inviting them to dinner. If they turned out to be horrible people, he couldn't do anything about it.
Question: Is Telemachus being sarcastic to Athena or is he truly rejecting her help?
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ReplyDelete"Hard-hearted you are, gods! You unrivaled lords of jealousy- scandalized when goddesses sleep with mortals, openly, even when one has made the man her husband." p. 156 line 130
ReplyDeleteMusing: I find this point of Calypso's very interesting because of the number of times, in the myths we read, a god lusts for a mortal. For example, as in prometheus and Io, Zeus is the one who has to hide his relationship with a mortal. Again in Daphne Apollo chases down this mortal and tries to sleep with her. So while Calypso rants about the problem of goddesses sleeping with mortals, there never seems to be a problem (except with Hera) when Zeus lusts after Io, Apollo tries to take Daphne's virginity, and Cupid marries Psyche. Even with the gods, there is a gender gap that underscores the ideals of greek culture during that time period.
"... a tremendous roller swept him toward the rocky coast where he'd have been flayed alive, his bones crushed if the bright-eyed goddess Pallas had not inspired him now." p. 165, line 468
Connection: This is similar to the story of Jason and the golden fleece. Medea helps him to escape all of his perils. Had it not been for the sorceress, Jason would have found himself drowned or killed immediately, much as Odysseus would have been killed on the rocks or drowned by Poseidon. On another occasion later on Athena 'inspires' him again. It is interesting to note in the two stories the influence of supernatural powers on these characters and their involvement in mortal lives.
question: Why does Athena have such a strong connection to Odysseus' family?
"Ah how shameless- the way these mortals blame the gods. From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes but they themselves, with their own reckless ways, compound their pains beyond their proper share." Pg78
ReplyDeleteHere Zeus puts the blame on the mortals which is interesting because it is actually the gods that have all the power and all the influence. In fact throughout the Odyssey the gods dictate the lives of the humans. For example when Athena take the form of Odysseus's past friends and guides Telemachus and gives him advice. Maybe without Athena Telemachus would never have had the confidence to go on his journey. Throughout the epic we see Gods taking favorites and aiding their favorite human, which is certainly helpful but when a god is crossed there are terrible consequences. And the question that comes to mind is, how would the Trojan war or Odysseus'/Telemachus' journey be different without the influence of the Gods?
"Just think of all the hospitality we enjoyed at the hands of other men before we made it home, and god save us from such hard treks in years to come. Quick unhitch their team. And bring them in, strangers, guests, to share our flowing feast." Here we see Xenia being displayed. Being hospitable was a huge part of the culture. We see that exemplified not only in this part of the Odyssey but also in Baucis and Philemon, Pegasus and Bellerophon and The Golden Fleece. Which leaves me wondering how can people in these horribly graphic epics (mostly the Iliad) be so violent to their enemies and so polite to their guests? Why so hospitable?
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ReplyDelete“ When young Dawn with her rose-red fingers shone once more…” pg. 123
ReplyDeleteEvery time Homer has been describing the sun rising in the morning he uses this metaphor about rose-red fingers. So far, I haven’t noticed as many metaphors in The Odyssey as there were in the Iliad, so I find it interesting that he has used this particular quote multiple times. I have also noticed that the Odyssey doesn’t have as many extended metaphors as there were in the Iliad.
“No, by god, the true son of my good friend Odysseus won’t bed down on a ship’s deck, not while I’m alive or my sons are left at home to host our guests” pg. 118
Xenia seems to be a major theme so far in the Odyssey. Each place that Telemachus has gone he has been treated with incredible hospitality. When he gets to Sparta, Menelaus doesn’t even ask him his name or why he came before he offered him food, warm clothing, a bath, and a place to stay. This hospitality was not seen very much in the Iliad, but it is seen other places in Greek Mythology, for example, in Bauchus and Philemon. Bauchus and Philemon were two of the poorest people in the land, but they still offered the gods entrance into their home. It is interesting that neither the rich or the poor feel more obliged than the other to welcome people into their homes.
Why does Athena have such a vested interest first in Odysseus and then Telemachus and the rest of their family and their wellbeing?
“Odysseus journeys home—the exile must return. But not in the convoy of the gods or mortal men. No, on a lashed, makeshift raft and wrung with pains, on the twentieth day he will make his landfall…” (153 line 35).
ReplyDeleteThoughts: I don’t understand why Zeus even makes the point of allowing Odysseus to go home. Never before has Zeus allowed it and is only doing so because Athena asked. I’m sure Athena had asked before Telemachus went in search of his father because Odysseus had always been her favorite. If he hadn’t freed Odysseus before, why would he now when somebody goes in search of him? Especially if Telemachus would probably find him eventually. I think Athena should just lead Telemachus to Odysseus because he has already left to look for him.
“Hard-hearted you are, you gods! you unrivaled lords of jealousy—scandalized when goddesses sleep with mortals, openly, even when one has made the man her husband” (156 line 130).
Thoughts: I think Calypso makes an excellent point here. The male gods can do whatever they want and sleep with anybody the choose. The male gods don’t get patronized for sleeping with moral women. I would think the goddesses would be treated the same, but no. There is massive gender discrimination among the gods. Maybe that is because that is how the human race was at that time. But I suppose even today the gender difference is the same. I just think Calypso called Hermes out, and I doubt anybody had ever done that before, mortal or goddess.
Question: Why didn’t Zeus send Hermes to Calypso to free Odysseus before Telemachus went to look for his father?
"he stole Atrides' wife, he murdered the warlord coming home from Troy, though he knew it meant his own total ruin" (1.42-44)
ReplyDeleteI thought this quote was interesting for two reasons. First, the dispute on who actually killed Agamemnon. Some claim that it was Aegisthus alone, others say that Clytemnestra helped plot to kill her husband, and others still say that Clytemnestra helped in the physical deed of killing her husband. This version seems to imply that Aegisthus acted of his own accord, because he "stole" the wife of Agamemnon. But what would motivate a man to his total ruin, if not love in this case? Also it's a little ridiculous that Zeus accuses Aegisthus of stealing Clytemnestra when Agamemnon physically carried Cassandra out of Troy, but that goes to show the importance of géras and battle in Greek culture. Aegisthus' act was seen as selfish because he had not won Clytemnestra fair and square.
"A dark wooded island, and there a goddess makes her home, a daughter of Atlas, wicked Titan" (1.61-62). Why is Calypso on the island? Is it because of her choice, her misdeeds, or even her father's misdeeds? If she was allowed to leave, she would most likely have followed Odysseus because she loves him. This leads me to think that she is imprisoned on the island of Ogygia, and not allowed to leave.
Did Athena win the argument with Zeus because she is his favorite child or because she persuaded him with her wisdom? Or both?
"And with all the poise he had, Telemachus replied... ...remember his story now, tell me the truth." book 4 line 352
ReplyDeleteI think that this quote is a good example of how Telemachus is coming of age. He shows that he is not scared to confront Menelaus. Telemachus also has to leave his home, and protection of his mother to get to the kingdom of Menelaus. What he asks for is news about his father and wether he has died or not.
"'You should have offered Zeus and the other gods a handsome sacrifice, then embarked, if you ever hoped for a rapid journey home across the wine-dark sea.'" book 4 line 530
This quote shows that the gods want the heroes to sacrifice to them more than they did. It shows how rushed Menelaus was to return home after the long war. He forgot to pay proper sacrifice to the gods and now they will not let him return home.
"Her mind in torment, wheeling like some lion at bay, dreading gangs of hunters closing their cunning ring around him for the finish" Book 4 line 884
ReplyDeleteMusing: This quote really showed me what goes through a mother's head when her offspring part from their home. The pressure of her son's absence builds up along with the threat of the suitors, making life for her very stressful.
"He slipped into the enemy's city, roamed its streets - all disguised, a totally different man, a beggar ... That's how Odysseus infiltrated Troy, and no one knew him at all" Book 4 line 132
Musing: This quote really shows how much the comrades of Odysseus respect him. Telemachus the son of Odysseus, talks with all of his father's comrades to see where his father ended up. All of them praise Odysseus for his cunning, courage, skill in battle, and his reflectiveness on all possible futures. As a commander his skill was unparalleled.
Question: What if Telemachus killed the suitors that were the root of the uprising that was happening back in Ithyca?
“‘Think: not one of the people whom he ruled remembers Odysseus now, that godlike man, and kindly as a father to his own children.’” p 152
ReplyDeleteI think that this quote is significant because it is clear that it is frowned upon for a mortal to be compared to a god. The fact that it was Athena, a goddess herself, who compared Odysseus to one of her own shows a different side. In most of the myths that we have read, if a mortal was trying to prove themselves as good or better than a god, they were brutally punished. I think that it was acceptable in this case that Odysseus was compared to a god because it was not him showing hubris, it was a goddess believing him worthy.
“She gave him a heavy bronze ax that fit his grip, both blades well-honed, with a fine olive haft lashed firm to its head.” p 159
The most important thing to note in this quote is the use of olive wood. Olive wood is one of Athena’s symbols and I believe the use of wood shows that she will be guiding and protecting Odysseus throughout his journey. We also know that olive wood is Odysseus’ wood due to her protection, and the fact that Calypso realizes this and gives him an ax made of it shows that she cares about him.
Why does Calypso care so much about Odysseus?
No, by god, the true son of my good friend Odysseus won’t bed down on a ship’s deck, not while I’m alive or my sons are left at home to host our guests” pg. 118
ReplyDeleteWhere ever Telemachus goes he is treated with amazing hospitality. Which is Xenia. But in most of the other myths and parts of the illiad people aren't treated with such Xenia
"And with all the poise he had, Telemachus replied... ...remember his story now, tell me the truth." book 4 line 352
This shows Telemachuss coming of age and how when he leaves home he isn't afraid to confront his fears. Like confronting oddesius.
Question: how is the hostility between Telemachus and Odysseus compared to the one between Achilles and Agamemnon
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“In the nights, true, he’d sleep with her in the arching cave—he had no choice—unwilling lover alongside lover all too willing.”
ReplyDeleteMusing: I find it very interesting that Odysseus can be so distraught during the day, and then proceed to have sexual relations with his own captor every night. Thought the quote says unwilling lover, it does not take so much effort to force him to bed. I understand that people have needs, but every night is more than fulfilling basic biological instincts.
"‘where Calypso lives, with ordered hair, a dread goddess, and she received me and loved me excessively and cared for me, and she promised to make me an immortal and all my days to be ageless, but never so could she win over the heart within me."
Musing: Also in strange dichotomy between the happenings. On one hand, he calls her 'dread,' on the other, he says that she loved him excessively. It still seems so strange that Odysseus could have that kind of situation for so long and be separated from his family and not take Calypso up on her offer.
Question: would you have stayed with Calypso given the choice?
"which one of you blocks my way here, keeps me from my voyage? How can i cross the swarming sea and reach home at last?" (136)
ReplyDeleteMusing: I do believe that it's true odysseus is blocked from going home. In class we debated if he really was blocked from going home because at night he would still go back to the caves and sleep with Calypso. But i think that this is just a natural response because he's been trapped their for so long. And even if he were to sneak away at night, he knows that he will die out at sea because Poseidon doesn't like Odysseus.
"But now my boy, my darling boy -- the whirlwinds have ripped him out of the halls without a trace" (147)
I don't believe that Penelope should be surprised that her son has run away from her. Growing up, Telemachus probably heard many great stories about his father but was never able to see him. So after many years, it is understandable that he would run away especially when theirs a god encouraging him. Also Penelope hasn't payed much attention to Telemachus, rather she is paying more attention to the suitors. Telemachus probably feels alone and isolated.
Question: Do you think Telemachus would have searched for his father if Athena hadn't of encouraged him?
“Help yourselves to food, and welcome! once you’ve dined we’ll ask who you are.” (126)
ReplyDeleteMusing: I think that this quote really shows how important xenia is to Greek society. Menelaus truly does not care who is eating at his table,he cares so little he even tells them not to tell him who they are until they have finished eating. I find it very interesting that they will eat with anyone and treat them as a friend without any consideration of who they really are.
“I yearned to sail back home again! I grieved too late for the madness Aphrodite sent me, luring me there, far from my dear land my bridal bed, my husband too, a man who lacked for neither brains nor beauty.” 132
Musing: I really like that we get to see Helens perspective on the war, how she didn’t have any affection towards the Trojan and when they failed she wasn’t sad but instead happy. I like that we get to see that the war had a huge effect on her and that is was not an easy experience for her. I like that we see that she regretted some of the things she has done, I think it adds more depth to her character.
Question: Why do you think xenia is so important to their culture even if it could have negative side effects?
"When a father's gone, his son takes much abuse in a house where no one comes to his defense. So with Telemachus now. His father's gone. No men at home will shield him from the worst." (page 129)
ReplyDelete-Telemachus was not the only child that was left at home because of the war. I wonder how the mothers dealt with this. Did they primarily care for the child or did servants? To have a son raised up in a household where he sees men chasing after his own mother must be hard. Telemachus had no male role model to look up to. All he could rely on were the stories he heard of his father. He seems to have so much pride and love for a father he never knew. I am impressed by how he stood up to the men in his house and isn't like any of them.
“He’s no mean man, not with a build like that… Look at his thighs, his legs, and what a pair of arms—his massive neck, his big, rippling strength!” (Page 195)
-The Romans put a lot of extra emphasis on the build of a man. A large proportion of the men are described as being muscular, I cannot think of a time when they describe a man who isn’t. I find it interesting that a person’s build can affect the way people view them as an individual. This is not the first example I have read that a strong man means that he is a nice one. Why should/would the size of his muscles determine how he is as a person? I don’t think it makes any sense. It might mean that they are hardworking but even then you can’t prove that.
•Is Athena described to me “built like a man” because she is the goddess wisdom and warfare?
"When young Dawn with her rose-red fingers shone once more...as the sun sank and the roads of the world grew dark" (page 123).
ReplyDelete-In the Odyssey there are multiple times where the a story opens and ends the same way. In most cases this would be too receptive to have but I think in the Odyssey it adds to it rather than take away because he changes it enough. Homer tends to do this in other pieces of work. In both the Iliad and the Odyssey they practically open the same way.
"lost and gone so long now-dead or alive, who knows? How they must mourn him too, Laertes, the old man, and self-possessed Penelope. Telemachus as well, the boy he left a babe in arms at home." (page 128)
-Of off the mortal women written about in the iliad and Odyssey I believe that Penelope is the strongest. She doesn't let the men take control of her. She is smart and quick and is committed. She loves her husband and son more than anything. The other women written about often seem like they have "no control", or at least that is the way it is shown. I understand women didn't have many rights back then but Penelope is a fighter which is why in the end she ends up back with her husband. Which is also saying a lot considering how long it took her to wait her Odysseus, while other women are being swept away while they have someone to protect her. Penelope is proven to be independent and steadfast.
Question: what is a heifer? (page 121)
"But while I roamed those lands, amassing a fortune, a stranger killed my brother, blind to the danger, duped blind--thanks to the cunning of his cursed, murderous queen! So I rule all of this wealth with no great joy" (127).
ReplyDeleteI thought this was a very powerful quote. I liked how it talked about how even with power and great wealth or fortune a person can have absolutely no joy or happiness in life. The wording of this was moving and I enjoyed reading it.
"Kill me then with a bronze knife-no mercy-or let me live,here in the palace- I'll hide nothing from you now! I knew it all, I gave him all he asked for, bread and mellow wine, but he made me take a binding oath that I, I wouldn't tell you, no, not till ten or a dozen days had passed of you missed the lad yourself and learned he'd gone.so tears would never mar your lovely face" (148).
This is a quote where the nurse, Eurycleia is begging for forgiveness for not coming forward. This quote talks about how powerful and binding that an oath can be between a powerful person and a not as powerful person. A person's role in society can impact how much respect and fear they can instill in others.
Question: Are there more nurses than just Eurycleia?