Homework Responses for Hal Bourne's Greek Myths students.
This page is intended for homework responses for Hal Bourne's Greek Myths students.
When directed to do so by the calendar, please respond to the questions listed below. You can either respond to the question or to one of your peers' comments.
The biggest difference that I noticed was the role of women. In the gods' council Athena objects to how Zeus is treating Odysseus. Although she is wrong, her father Zeus calmly explains that to her and says that he will do anything that he can to try and get Odysseus home. Whereas in the men's council (this actually happens right before the council convenes), Penelope comes downstairs and tells Phemius to stop singing the song of the Achaean's Journey Home from Troy because she can't bear to hear it. Penelope's own son, Telemachus, bluntly tells her to basically toughen up. You can see that with the god's the goddesses are respected more and less so with men.
While both councils seem to dwell on petty disagreements stemming from the yearning of power or influence, there are some differences between the mortals and the Gods. I would say the biggest difference is the way in which decisions are made. The Gods seem to simply do whatever they feel like, even if it angers several other Gods. This forms a sort of mini-war between the Gods who take sides with the humans. This goes on until Zeus sets down rules of which none of them can break. The humans have a similar sort of chain of command but they discuss their decisions or at least talk to each other about them. Like the Gods, there is one king who is the total leader of each side.
The council of gods attitude is very different than that of the men's. The gods are more indifferent. For instance, when Athena enters the household of Odysseus disguised as Mentes, Telemachus is immediately embarrassed for not welcoming her sooner. It is a small mistake and not even his fault, but he still feels abashed. The gods, on the other hand, felt no remorse when discussing the death of Aegisthus. If anything, they sounded more annoyed than sad. The council of men seem to take more responsibility for what occurs around them than the gods.
The gods' council seems less like a council than that of men. The gods do not all get to suggest things, they just beg Zeus to complete something for them, instead of having a discussion about it. Even though the council of men was in the household of Odysseus, therefore being controlled by Telemachus, all men were allowed to voice their opinion and each opinion would be equally considered because all the men were on the same level. The gods all play different roles, so some gods are more powerful than others, giving the more powerful a larger voice.
The gods council did not provide much conflict. Though they spoke of Poseidon he was not present to protest the aid of Odysseus. As it happens, Athen assumed Zeus' opinion wrongly. There could have been a confrontation but there was not. The men's council was more of a discussion. It consisted mostly of the suitors asking after the stranger and it was less of a formal gathering. The suitors, though, are competing for Penelope's hand and seem to be wary of other men or news of Odysseus. They asked after him to ensure that he was lost. I also noted that the men were more hostile whereas the gods were slightly indifferent toward the outcome, all but Athena and Zeus. What was most striking was that Zeus began the council by blaming men for their own misfortunes while Telemachus began the men's council by blaming Zeus. This was an interesting direct opposition of viewpoints.
The gods' council has a different overall feel than the council of the mortal men, and I think that the general sense of this meeting is similar to the general sense of being a god in general. It's not their fault, but I think that the fact that they are immortal, so nothing they do will ever actually put them or their family (since their immediate family is all immortal as well) in mortal danger, makes them think about mortals in a different way. Because they will live through so many generations of mortal warriors, they have a hard time caring especially about a single mortal. Although they fight for the ones they favor, it never takes them long to get over their deaths, and even if the mortal man dies, the god takes it as a more personal assault, and gets angry, as opposed to sad. This comes into play at the council because they discuss life and death with such indifference, which is strikingly opposite to the men's council, where they discuss even trivial matters with gravity.
The major difference I see between the gods' council and the men's council is that the gods' council happens to appease the wishes of Athena, one of Zeus's favorite daughters. Looking back on the Iliad to the Odyssey, Athena always manages to win the heart of her father. The whole discussion revolves around how Athena asks for Zeus' help with getting Odysseus back to his kingdom of Ithyca. Zeus says that no other god is against Odysseus going back, but because Odysseus has to sail back to his home he must go through the domain of Poseidon, he will have trouble getting home (Odysseus blinded one of Poseidon's sons). Zeus does promise Athena he will try as hard as he can to appease her wishes.
The men's council on the other hand, is almost opposite to the gods' council. Odysseus' son and wife discuss with each other and Odysseus' suitors about whether Odysseus will return home. His son Telemachus knows that Odysseus is alive and is on his way home because Athena said so. However, his mother Penelope and the suitors of Odysseus are bent on convincing Telemachus that his father won't return home. It is obvious that they are looking forward to Odysseus' never ending absence.
The contrast on how the gods' council wants to get Odysseus back home versus the men's council not wanting Odysseus to return justifies that in the end, the gods are the ones with the better judgement.
What differences do you notice between the gods' council and the men's? The Gods because they are immortal have a different outlook on life and general and the worth of life. Especially the worth of a life of a mere mortal although Athena is pleading the case of Odysseus. The Gods also are very set in their ways and head strong. Making decisions that benefit them. Athena gets her way withe the Council. The men's council was more discussion like, more of a democracy in a way. The men were able to voice their opinions unlike with the Council where more powerful gods like Zeus and Athena have the final say and the most important voice.
There are some differences between the council of the gods and the council of men. The gods seem less willing to interfere in the affairs of the other gods - for example, Zeus is loath do come between Poseidon and Odysseus. However, Athena eventually persuades Zeus to allow her to take action. Also, in the council of men, it is the men who make the decisions and carry them out. Athena, a female figure, takes the lead in the discussion and then continues to act her plans out. Telemachus seems to be spearheading the decisions and carrying them out. He orders his mother, his elder, back to her bedchamber when she suggests the bard change his song (although it is all part of an act). Telemachus is also more hot-headed than the gods, who seemed to have more level emotions when making decisions. The affairs of mortals clearly matter more to the men and women on Earth, so naturally their emotions do influence their decisions. The lives of mortals understandably seem short and unimportant to the gods who have no invested interest.
The major difference I see between the mens’ council and the gods’ council is in the way they approach the problem. Athena approaches Zeus about brining Odysseus back to Ithaca and he grants her wishes by saying that he will try his hardest to get Odysseus back home. In the gods council there is no discussion or argument, Zeus just decides what he is going to do. In the men’s council, on the other hand, Telemachus feels he must hold a meeting in order to dismiss his mother’s suitors and then be free to search for Odysseus. Telemachus has already made up his mind about the matter, but he still holds a meeting anyway so everyone is aware of what he is doing and why.
A difference I noticed between the council of the gods and the council of men is who runs it. In the council of the gods, whatever Zeus says goes. However, in the council of men, multiple people give opinions and suggestions and they seem to be considered. This is shown when Zeus instructs all of the other gods to not interfere with the war for a period of time, and although they wanted to, they were forced to listen to him. However, when the men are counseling to discuss battle plans, everyone was able to express their opinions and all ideas were at least considered and often discussed.
The largest difference between the council of gods and the council of men is that the men are far more democratic. It seems that even though the gods have, essentially superpowers, the real 'humane' people were the humans. The gods are not simply better versions of humans, they are entirely different creatures, and subscribe to different rules. It is almost as if the gods are LESS perfect than the men, but gain something from the lack of civility.
In the Gods council Zeus is the primary deciding force. All decisions go through him. For example, Athena doesn't dare try to help Telemachus without first approaching Zeus. In the men's council however multiple people make decisions. But like the God's council, one person makes the decision. If Athena had not told Telemachus that his father was still alive, i believe that Penelope would have married already but because Telemachus is still searching for his dad, the suitors have won the power.
I believe that the biggest difference between the council of gods and the council of men is the differing power of each person. The gods' council is an interesting case as each person already has a significant amount of power. In order for there system to work, Zeus has to be given a sort of “veto power” that gives him the final say. This system seems to be faulty, as all of the gods still have power over the mortals. The human council seems a bit more organized. There are times for each person to speak and each member on the council has a say in what the result ends up being. This democratic-type system is quite a contrast compared to the gods’ more power-based system.
The Difference between the council of gods and the council of men is the decision making at the end. At the end of a council of the gods, Zeus has the last word.The gods have to refer to him to make any decisions, for example Athena going to Zeus to get permission to help Telemachus. In the council of men however, there is no one who is as comparatively powerful as Zeus, several men make the decision and they have to agree to it together. Another difference is that the gods bring a different perspective on the decisions that they make, it is very unlikely that they will be directly affected by their actions. For men it is fact that their decisions will affect them directly, this means that the men should care more about the decisions that they make and be more conscious of the consequences.
There are similarities and differences between the two councils. Both meet in order to determine what should be done in certain circumstances but is often turned into a fight over who has the greatest power. The men(humans) often take a longer time talking things over to consider all the options and usually there are two clear sides. When the gods fight it has more to do with power of the individual gods. They are often make their decisions quickly and put more emotion into it than they should. Their arguments often bring back past ones. They do not easily forget or forgive. The gods often plot against each other or try to do things behind one anthers back. But Zeus holds the greatest power overall so they gods know that whatever he decides is what will happen.
Both of the councils use the same methods in how they interact with eachother. But the gods like to do what ever they feel like. Because they are immortal and can do that. While the humans are confined to the boundaries of being mortal.
The council of the gods and the men are both the same and different.The council of the men is a more democratic than the council of the gods. In the council of the men, the men have a say in what decision is made where as in the council of the gods everything is decided by Zeus. If Zeus wants something to happen it will happen and if not it defiantly won't happen. The gods usually make decisions that are not very logical and seem to be more extravagant because the decisions that they make do not affect them but instead affect the men. The men usually are more careful about their decisions and make more logical ones because they affect them directly and therefore are important. The gods' council has more power because they get to decide the fate of the man and the gods. -Sophie
The god’s council and the men’s council are very different. The men’s council seems to have more of a discussion, they make decisions together as opposed to the council of the god’s were they are essentially asking for the permission of Zeus. Zeus makes the final decision and the council is more trying to persuade Zeus to do what they want then actually having a discussion about what is best and coming to a decision together. The council of men is much more democratic, there is more of an equal footing than just one person making the decision.
The biggest difference that I noticed was the role of women. In the gods' council Athena objects to how Zeus is treating Odysseus. Although she is wrong, her father Zeus calmly explains that to her and says that he will do anything that he can to try and get Odysseus home. Whereas in the men's council (this actually happens right before the council convenes), Penelope comes downstairs and tells Phemius to stop singing the song of the Achaean's Journey Home from Troy because she can't bear to hear it. Penelope's own son, Telemachus, bluntly tells her to basically toughen up.
ReplyDeleteYou can see that with the god's the goddesses are respected more and less so with men.
While both councils seem to dwell on petty disagreements stemming from the yearning of power or influence, there are some differences between the mortals and the Gods.
ReplyDeleteI would say the biggest difference is the way in which decisions are made. The Gods seem to simply do whatever they feel like, even if it angers several other Gods. This forms a sort of mini-war between the Gods who take sides with the humans. This goes on until Zeus sets down rules of which none of them can break.
The humans have a similar sort of chain of command but they discuss their decisions or at least talk to each other about them. Like the Gods, there is one king who is the total leader of each side.
The council of gods attitude is very different than that of the men's. The gods are more indifferent. For instance, when Athena enters the household of Odysseus disguised as Mentes, Telemachus is immediately embarrassed for not welcoming her sooner. It is a small mistake and not even his fault, but he still feels abashed. The gods, on the other hand, felt no remorse when discussing the death of Aegisthus. If anything, they sounded more annoyed than sad. The council of men seem to take more responsibility for what occurs around them than the gods.
ReplyDeleteThe gods' council seems less like a council than that of men. The gods do not all get to suggest things, they just beg Zeus to complete something for them, instead of having a discussion about it. Even though the council of men was in the household of Odysseus, therefore being controlled by Telemachus, all men were allowed to voice their opinion and each opinion would be equally considered because all the men were on the same level. The gods all play different roles, so some gods are more powerful than others, giving the more powerful a larger voice.
ReplyDeleteThe gods council did not provide much conflict. Though they spoke of Poseidon he was not present to protest the aid of Odysseus. As it happens, Athen assumed Zeus' opinion wrongly. There could have been a confrontation but there was not. The men's council was more of a discussion. It consisted mostly of the suitors asking after the stranger and it was less of a formal gathering. The suitors, though, are competing for Penelope's hand and seem to be wary of other men or news of Odysseus. They asked after him to ensure that he was lost. I also noted that the men were more hostile whereas the gods were slightly indifferent toward the outcome, all but Athena and Zeus. What was most striking was that Zeus began the council by blaming men for their own misfortunes while Telemachus began the men's council by blaming Zeus. This was an interesting direct opposition of viewpoints.
ReplyDeleteThe gods' council has a different overall feel than the council of the mortal men, and I think that the general sense of this meeting is similar to the general sense of being a god in general. It's not their fault, but I think that the fact that they are immortal, so nothing they do will ever actually put them or their family (since their immediate family is all immortal as well) in mortal danger, makes them think about mortals in a different way. Because they will live through so many generations of mortal warriors, they have a hard time caring especially about a single mortal. Although they fight for the ones they favor, it never takes them long to get over their deaths, and even if the mortal man dies, the god takes it as a more personal assault, and gets angry, as opposed to sad. This comes into play at the council because they discuss life and death with such indifference, which is strikingly opposite to the men's council, where they discuss even trivial matters with gravity.
ReplyDeleteThe major difference I see between the gods' council and the men's council is that the gods' council happens to appease the wishes of Athena, one of Zeus's favorite daughters. Looking back on the Iliad to the Odyssey, Athena always manages to win the heart of her father. The whole discussion revolves around how Athena asks for Zeus' help with getting Odysseus back to his kingdom of Ithyca. Zeus says that no other god is against Odysseus going back, but because Odysseus has to sail back to his home he must go through the domain of Poseidon, he will have trouble getting home (Odysseus blinded one of Poseidon's sons). Zeus does promise Athena he will try as hard as he can to appease her wishes.
ReplyDeleteThe men's council on the other hand, is almost opposite to the gods' council. Odysseus' son and wife discuss with each other and Odysseus' suitors about whether Odysseus will return home. His son Telemachus knows that Odysseus is alive and is on his way home because Athena said so. However, his mother Penelope and the suitors of Odysseus are bent on convincing Telemachus that his father won't return home. It is obvious that they are looking forward to Odysseus' never ending absence.
The contrast on how the gods' council wants to get Odysseus back home versus the men's council not wanting Odysseus to return justifies that in the end, the gods are the ones with the better judgement.
What differences do you notice between the gods' council and the men's?
ReplyDeleteThe Gods because they are immortal have a different outlook on life and general and the worth of life. Especially the worth of a life of a mere mortal although Athena is pleading the case of Odysseus. The Gods also are very set in their ways and head strong. Making decisions that benefit them. Athena gets her way withe the Council. The men's council was more discussion like, more of a democracy in a way. The men were able to voice their opinions unlike with the Council where more powerful gods like Zeus and Athena have the final say and the most important voice.
There are some differences between the council of the gods and the council of men. The gods seem less willing to interfere in the affairs of the other gods - for example, Zeus is loath do come between Poseidon and Odysseus. However, Athena eventually persuades Zeus to allow her to take action. Also, in the council of men, it is the men who make the decisions and carry them out. Athena, a female figure, takes the lead in the discussion and then continues to act her plans out. Telemachus seems to be spearheading the decisions and carrying them out. He orders his mother, his elder, back to her bedchamber when she suggests the bard change his song (although it is all part of an act). Telemachus is also more hot-headed than the gods, who seemed to have more level emotions when making decisions. The affairs of mortals clearly matter more to the men and women on Earth, so naturally their emotions do influence their decisions. The lives of mortals understandably seem short and unimportant to the gods who have no invested interest.
ReplyDeleteThe major difference I see between the mens’ council and the gods’ council is in the way they approach the problem. Athena approaches Zeus about brining Odysseus back to Ithaca and he grants her wishes by saying that he will try his hardest to get Odysseus back home. In the gods council there is no discussion or argument, Zeus just decides what he is going to do. In the men’s council, on the other hand, Telemachus feels he must hold a meeting in order to dismiss his mother’s suitors and then be free to search for Odysseus. Telemachus has already made up his mind about the matter, but he still holds a meeting anyway so everyone is aware of what he is doing and why.
ReplyDeleteA difference I noticed between the council of the gods and the council of men is who runs it. In the council of the gods, whatever Zeus says goes. However, in the council of men, multiple people give opinions and suggestions and they seem to be considered. This is shown when Zeus instructs all of the other gods to not interfere with the war for a period of time, and although they wanted to, they were forced to listen to him. However, when the men are counseling to discuss battle plans, everyone was able to express their opinions and all ideas were at least considered and often discussed.
ReplyDeleteThe largest difference between the council of gods and the council of men is that the men are far more democratic. It seems that even though the gods have, essentially superpowers, the real 'humane' people were the humans. The gods are not simply better versions of humans, they are entirely different creatures, and subscribe to different rules. It is almost as if the gods are LESS perfect than the men, but gain something from the lack of civility.
ReplyDeleteIn the Gods council Zeus is the primary deciding force. All decisions go through him. For example, Athena doesn't dare try to help Telemachus without first approaching Zeus. In the men's council however multiple people make decisions. But like the God's council, one person makes the decision. If Athena had not told Telemachus that his father was still alive, i believe that Penelope would have married already but because Telemachus is still searching for his dad, the suitors have won the power.
ReplyDeleteI believe that the biggest difference between the council of gods and the council of men is the differing power of each person. The gods' council is an interesting case as each person already has a significant amount of power. In order for there system to work, Zeus has to be given a sort of “veto power” that gives him the final say. This system seems to be faulty, as all of the gods still have power over the mortals. The human council seems a bit more organized. There are times for each person to speak and each member on the council has a say in what the result ends up being. This democratic-type system is quite a contrast compared to the gods’ more power-based system.
ReplyDeleteThe Difference between the council of gods and the council of men is the decision making at the end. At the end of a council of the gods, Zeus has the last word.The gods have to refer to him to make any decisions, for example Athena going to Zeus to get permission to help Telemachus. In the council of men however, there is no one who is as comparatively powerful as Zeus, several men make the decision and they have to agree to it together. Another difference is that the gods bring a different perspective on the decisions that they make, it is very unlikely that they will be directly affected by their actions. For men it is fact that their decisions will affect them directly, this means that the men should care more about the decisions that they make and be more conscious of the consequences.
ReplyDeleteThere are similarities and differences between the two councils. Both meet in order to determine what should be done in certain circumstances but is often turned into a fight over who has the greatest power. The men(humans) often take a longer time talking things over to consider all the options and usually there are two clear sides. When the gods fight it has more to do with power of the individual gods. They are often make their decisions quickly and put more emotion into it than they should. Their arguments often bring back past ones. They do not easily forget or forgive. The gods often plot against each other or try to do things behind one anthers back. But Zeus holds the greatest power overall so they gods know that whatever he decides is what will happen.
ReplyDeleteBoth of the councils use the same methods in how they interact with eachother. But the gods like to do what ever they feel like. Because they are immortal and can do that. While the humans are confined to the boundaries of being mortal.
ReplyDeleteThe council of the gods and the men are both the same and different.The council of the men is a more democratic than the council of the gods. In the council of the men, the men have a say in what decision is made where as in the council of the gods everything is decided by Zeus. If Zeus wants something to happen it will happen and if not it defiantly won't happen. The gods usually make decisions that are not very logical and seem to be more extravagant because the decisions that they make do not affect them but instead affect the men. The men usually are more careful about their decisions and make more logical ones because they affect them directly and therefore are important. The gods' council has more power because they get to decide the fate of the man and the gods.
ReplyDelete-Sophie
The god’s council and the men’s council are very different. The men’s council seems to have more of a discussion, they make decisions together as opposed to the council of the god’s were they are essentially asking for the permission of Zeus. Zeus makes the final decision and the council is more trying to persuade Zeus to do what they want then actually having a discussion about what is best and coming to a decision together. The council of men is much more democratic, there is more of an equal footing than just one person making the decision.
ReplyDelete