Homework Responses for Hal Bourne's Greek Myths students.
This page is intended for homework responses for Hal Bourne's Greek Myths students.
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Wednesday, December 1, 2010
RWR #1
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Page 177 “Doesn’t the son of Tydeus know, down deep, the man who fights the gods does not live long?” Connection: Dione, Aphrodite’s mother, says this quote when she is trying to comfort her by telling her that Diomedes will have an unfortunate ending. I chose this quote because it is a theme in Greek mythology that you see again and again. For example, Otus and Ephialtes had huge egos and thought they were so superior to the gods. They even managed in kidnapping Ares. But they met an unhappy fate and were outwitted by Artemis, who made them kill each other.
Page 192 “But now, wild as a black cyclone twisting out of a cloudbank, building up from the day’s heat, blasts and towers-so brazen Ares looked to Tydeus’ son Diomedes.” Musing: I thought this was a really good example of what Mr. Bourne was talking about in class today. He said a lot of times in Greek myths the poet will use what seems like a really lengthy description to explain something. But I think that it sometimes helps the writing. Like in this quote for example you can really tell just how mad Ares is.
Discussion Question: How much power does Zeus really have? I know he’s the Father of the gods and men, but it seems like Hera has a lot of influence over him. If I was him I would just overrule her.
Page 148: "Just think what thanks, what fame yo'd win in the eyes of all the Trojans, Prince Paris most of all. The first among all, you'd bear off shining, priceless gifts from him." Musing: I really this part of the story, as Athena is ordered to make the Trojans attack the Greeks and break the truce. Rather than using Godly force to control the events that take place with some kind of telekenesis, she uses cunning and wisdom to change the course of events. I think this passage really showed humans as pathetic creatures that will do anything for power and recognition. It represents us as slaves of our emotion, which I think in many ways is true of human beings- this passage brings out the sadness and shame in this fact.
Page 100: "At that command the dream went winging off, and passing quickly along the fast trim ships, made for the king and found him soon, sound asleep in his tent." Musing: I just thought this was another really creative way for the Gods to change the course of events for the mortals. Once again, instead of using force to adjust what happens, Zeus delicately sends a dream telling Agamemnon to attack the Trojans, while he is sleeping. I have heard many theories to explain how dreams come about and what they mean, but messages from the Gods is one I have never heard.
Discussion Question: How much of this war is actually decided by mortals? Do all events on Earth in this story happen as a result of the Gods' will?
1. “If Aphrodite daughter of Zeus slips into battle, she’s the one to stab with your sharp bronze spear” P. 168 Musing: This seemed like a rather stupid thing for Tydides to agree to. I understand why Athen would try and get a mortal to fight her battles for her and get Tydides to fight Athena since basically the whole war is based on their battle. I don’t however understand why Tydides would agree to this. They even say later in the book “Doesn’t the son of Tydeus know, down deep, the man who fights the gods does not live long?” Pg 177. It seems by this point most people would know that stabbing a god is extremely dangerous.
2. “Round her beloved son her glistening arms went streaming, flinging her shining robe before him, only a fold but it blocked the weapons hurtling towards his body” Pg. 174 Musing: The gods seem to have meddle quite a bit in the lives of humans. It seems almost like the gods have more to do with the outcome of the war then the humans themselves do. On almost every page they are saving a human from their death or even riding with them into battle. Aphrodite and Athena in particular are constantly healing and protecting humans.
Discussion question: Do you think that the gods have more effect on the outcome of the war or the humans do?
1. “Tydeus’ gallant son, he rages so with a god beside him—not alone, no” (p. 170) As Diomedes is coming to kill Pandarus, Pandarus realizes that Diomedes has a god on his side. I noticed this because I imagine that it would be extremely frustrating to be fighting against an enemy who was backed by a god. I am impressed that Pandarus still has confidence that he can win this fight and kill Diomedes, since he is basically challenging a god.
2. “Sarpedon, master strategist of the Lycians, what compels you to cringe and cower here?” (p. 185) This is just one example of all the taunting that all the fighters in this book do. They especially target people who aren’t running in the front lines putting their lives in danger. This quote is a good example of that because they state that Sarpedon is the master strategist, which is an extremely important and challenging role, but no one accepts that because, to them, a hero must be viciously killing people and putting himself at risk. No one values people like Sarpedon who are just as necessary, if not more so, than the spearmen and archers, to the overall success of the army.
Question: Why are some gods/goddesses (like Aphrodite) very involved in a lot of stories and more well-known, while others (like Dione) are rarely mentioned?
1. Page 107: "'...No, my soft friends, wretched excuses- women, not men of Achaea!" Odysseus is trying to degrade the men by calling them women. I chose this quote because it's something that still happens in the present day. For example, I've heard many times, in TV shows and more, "you throw like a girl," said to a boy meaning that he does not throw well or throws weakly.
2. Page 139: "This is more than I can bear, I tell you- to watch my son do battle with Menelaus, loved by the War-god, right before my eyes. Zeus knows, no doubt, and every immortal too, which fighter is doomed to end all this in death." Priam, Paris's dad, knows his son is about to die, and doesn't talk his son out of fighting. Instead, he flees and doesn't want to watch the fight. This surprised me. Clarifying Question: If it was so obvious to every immortal who would win the fight between Paris and Menelaus, why did Paris agree with Hector to challenge Menelaus in the first place?
#1. Page 181: "Out of his rich guarded chamber the god himself launched Aeneas now, driving courage into his heart and the captain took his place amidst his men." Here Aries, the god, is instilling courage into Aeneas encouraging him to fight. It looks to us like it is Aries persuading Aeneas to fight. That maybe without his encouragement Aeneas may not have had the drive to do so. And maybe this dependence on someone else is a negative thing. But to the people that would have listened to the Iliad the God driving courage into a mortal is nothing but a compliment, showing that the God thinks him worthy of his encouragement. This can relate to God's influence on religious people today. And that some people believe that God will guide them and advise them to do what is right.
#2. Page 150: "The lord of men Agamemnon shuddered, frightened to see the dark blood gushing from the wound." This is surprising in a way because the Greeks enjoyed and were so accustomed to violence. Violence was their entertainment. This quote shows how these characters and people in general have a human side to them. And that it is only human and natural to feel fear and be afraid of violence. This also makes me think about the Iliad and how we are reading about such violent occurrences yet we distance ourselves and don't fully process what we're reading.
Clarifying Question: How do mortals and men make gods do what they want?
“And now you threaten to strip me of my prize in person— the one i fought for long and hard, and sons of Achaea handed her to me. My honors never equal yours” (82-83)
Opinion: I think that Achilles has a valid point here. Agamemnon realizes he has no choice but to give up Chryseis and so he decides to take Briseis from Achilles. I think this is very unfair because it is clear that Achilles has done most of the work and it think it is unfair for Agamemnon to take Briseis. To add to this Agamemnon does not bother to fight for another woman, but instead complains about his prize being “snatched away” (81) and rudely says “i will take a prize myself—your own, or Ajax or Odysseus prize” (82).
“Seeing his anger flare, field marshal Agamemnon smiled broadly and took back his taunts at once” (157)
Musing: Here, Agamemnon insults Odysseus by accusing him of doing nothing and cowardly “skulking out of range” (156). Agamemnon does this because it is his method of encouraging his troops. I thought that this quote was ironic because Odysseus is supposed to be the cleverest commander yet he is easily fooled by Agamemnon.
Question: Is Agamemnon still respected by the Archaens even though he is really selfish, and clearly causes many problems because of his selfishness.
1. "Aeneas the Trojan captain checked him sharply: 'Not talk of turning for home! No turning the tide till we wheel and face this man with team and car and fight it out with weapons hand-to-hand" p. 171
Connection (text-to-test): I think it is very interesting that on the next page, (172) Diomedes says a very similar phrase when talking about the fight they are about to endure: "Not a word of retreat. You'll never persuade me. It's not my nature to shrink from battle, cringe in fear with the fighting strength still steady in my chest. [...] I'll meet them man-to-man."
2. “If Aphrodite daughter of Zeus slips into battle, she’s the one to stab with your sharp bronze spear” P. 168
Opinion: I find it interesting that Hera suggests that it would be wiser to fight Aphrodite than any other god. I believe that it would actually be just as foolish given that she has shown considerable power earlier in the book, and she is a daughter of Kronos. To affront any god and attack them does not seem appropriate in any circumstance. I believe that Athena is putting her anger at Aphrodite above common sense.
Discussion Question: Who would have won the fight between Tydides and Diomedes had the gods not interfered? Was a struggle between the gods just being manifested through a human war?
"Hear me Trojans, Achaeans geared for combat - home I go to windy Illium…to end all this in death." (138-139)
Text-to-text(?): This is a rare glimpse into the emotional heart of the classic stony-faced soldier/man of Grecian literature. The tale of Agamemnon sacrificing his daughter for fair winds, etc. show that a "hero" will do anything for a favourable outcome. Here, Priam cannot bear to see the sure demise of his beautiful son Paris. The king is not only showing compassion for his son, sad that he is to die, but is so struck with grief that he must retire, too cowardly to watch the act.
"And Helen in all her radiance…dear land of their fathers." (136)
Musing: I wonder if Helen is beginning to regret her decisions. She was previously convinced by Aphrodite to come to the battlefield because she missed her previous companions, and now she sees that two of her dear friends are dead, forever gone to her. Before this quote when she is explaining to Priam the warriors, she seems quite homesick and nostalgic.
Question: Did Helen of her own accord truly, loving Paris, or is she just playing the field as she did with Menelaus before?
1. Pg. 169: "Now he'd never welcome his two sons home from war, alive in the flesh..." Musing: Even though everyone fighting in the battles seem to be bloodthirsty and brutal, a longing for home and family is continuously mentioned throughout the book. They seem to need a lot of pep talks to get angry, even though they are extremely violent during battles. It's hard to imagine that these bloodthirsty killing machines are also just "regular" guys who just want to go home to their wives.
2. Pg. 176: "Bear up now, despite your heartsick grief. How many gods who hold the halls of Olympus have had to endure such wounds from mortal men..." Musing: I never realized that gods could be injured by "mortal men." I always pictured them to be larger than life, but it seems like most of the gods, including Zeus, have been harmed by men. I suppose that's why the gods tend to strike down mortals who become too strong. I also find it surprising that Aphrodite is so upset by her wound. I expected her to act more resilient instead of immediately abandoning Aeneas and heading off to Olympus to get healed.
Question: Compared to mortal men, how much more invincible and stronger are the gods?
1.) "But the shining archer Pandarus marked him storming down the plain, smashing the Trojan lines before him." (Page 167, Book 5, Lines 104-105). This reminds me of men Achilles is shot down, except for Diomedes is able to survive the wound and continue fighting. The Trojans seem to have a tendency to shoot down their enemies with arrows more so than the Greeks.This is not surprising because Apollo and Artemis (the immortal archers) were more on the side of the Trojans. Later, Apollo guides Paris' arrow to bring down Achilles. I thought the association between the Trojans and archery was interesting because archers are thought to be more cowardly in Greek Mythology. They're not really in the thick of battle, and they're taking down their opponents in an underhanded way. Pandarus seems weak compared to the fighting strength of Diomedes.
2.) "And now the prince, the captain of men Aeneas would have died on the spot if Zeus's daughter had not marked him so quickly, his mother Aphrodite" (Page 174, Lines 347-349). This just goes to show the meddling of the gods. Aeneas is saved multiple times throughout the Iliad, because the gods foresee his future, and take it upon themselves to meddle in the affairs of mortals.
Question: Would Diomedes have won the battle if the gods had not interfered. and how would that have changed the course of the war, if any?
page 148- "As Achaeans... Inside him." Opinion : This passage is when Athena goes into the trojan army and incites the archer to shoot an arrow at Menelaus. This shows that the gods were eager to start the fight between troy and the greeks. I think that this is a very important event in the book because it is the start to the many years of fighting. I also think that it is a very strange thing for Athena to do, because I feel the morale of the greeks depend on how Menelaus is doing.
page 162- "So he cried... She hurtled through the onset." Opinion- I think that it is very interesting that the Gods and Goddesses are actually directly engaged in the battle. They encourage the men directly because they either like or dislike the other side. I think that it would be very intimidating to have a goddess fighting for the opposing side, especially Athena because she is the goddess of battle.
Question: Can The Trojans Hear Athena Yelling At And Encouraging The Greeks?
pg. 172 “Not a word of retreat. You’ll never persuade me. It’s not my nature to shrink from battle, cringe in fear” I thought this was interesting in contrast to what we said about Agamemnon in class on Wednesday. Our perception of Agamemnon thus far was that he was not as courageous and willing to fight as some of the others. Even if our perception is not completely true it is not clear that Agamemnon really is a great fighter. Diomedes is making it very clear that he will not have the same reputation as Agamemnon and is willing to sacrifice his life in order to fight for what he believes in.
pg. 181 ""And how they thrilled to see him alive, safe, unharmed and marching back to their lines, his soul ablaze for war, but his men asked him nothing. The labor of battle would not let them" I thought this part was interesting because it shows the importance of suppressing ones feelings in battle. In class we talked about how bloodthirsty and violent some of the people were during this time. The soldiers were able to push themselves to physical extremes in part because of their ability to forget their emotions and focus solely on the task at hand.
Question: How do the fighters decide which god/goddess to pray to and ask for help? It seems like deciding who to ask would be very difficult because each god/goddess has very different abilities and powers.
1) p. 141: “…enraged with brazen spear, mad for the kill but Aphrodite snatched Paris away, easy work for a god, wrapped him in swirls of mist and set him down in his bedroom filled with scent.” Musing: I thought it was interesting how Aphrodite can often be thought of as deceitful in her path to get love, but in Paris’ case, she is coming through for him. Though what she is doing can be frowned upon, and in my opinion should be, she is fulfilling her promise of Helen to Paris. I also found it interesting how Aphrodite stepped into battle to protect Paris, even though she is not at all remotely connected to war.
2) p. 150: “Picture a woman dyeing ivory blood red… a Carian or Maeonian staining a hors’s cheekpiece…” Musing: I thing that the description in this line (and the text that continues) shows the depth of the wound that has been sent by Athena, physically. Emotionally, the wound seems to be even deeper, especially for Agamemnon who then rallies his troops and goes into battle.
Question: Discussion: Did the way Achilles was raised effect how he acts? Did his parents, Peleus and Thetis, have an effect on his personality?
Pg. 147 “Excellent! The three cities that I love best of all are Argos and Sparta, Mycenae with streets as broad as Troy’s. Raze them—whenever they stir the hatred in your hears. My cities…I will never rise in their defense, not against you—I’d never grudge your pleasure.” At first, when I read this, I was confused as to why Hera would just give up against Zeus. I read it again to try to understand and I realized she was being sarcastic in the first few lines and then justifying why she would not help her cities. I think she’s trying to irk Zeus, even though she knows she won’t get her way. She’s trying to make him feel as guilty as possible while he makes sure the warriors of her favorite cities get attacked before they can attack.
Pg. 178 “Fighting is not for you, my child, the works of war. See to the works of marriage, the slow fires of longing. Athena and blazing Ares will deal with all the bloodshed.” This stood out to me because it shows that not all the Gods stand at the same level. Although it was important to have a god or goddess of love, Aphrodite got looked down upon when she tried to help with a battle. If any other god had done what Aphrodite did, they would have been thanked, not laughed at. It just seems like people didn’t take Aphrodite as seriously as other the other gods. And, in a way, that makes it seem like she is less important.
Question: Clarifying: Were gods and goddesses of war looked up to more than the other gods?
Pg. 152 "King Agamemnon's hour. You would not find him asleep, not cringing a moment, hanging back from the struggle-- he pressed for battle now where men win glory." This quote portrays Agamemnon as stubborn. It talks about how Agamemnon did not even want to win the battle for a purpose but simply for the glory of victory. Agamemnon liked to be in charge but from afar. He liked to feel he was powerful and had complete control over every situation. Backing down was something that Agamemnon was not about to do as we can see from this quote. Although Agamemnon's motives and reasoning may not have been all great he does deserve credit for sticking with what he believes, even if it were for stubborn reasons.
Pg. 172 "But powerful Diomedes froze him with a glance: 'Not a word of retreat. You'll never persuade me. It's not my nature to shrink from battle, cringe in fear with the fighting strength still stead in my chest.'" I thought this quote gave a wonderful description of Diomedes. As we see, Diomedes is a fighter until the end. We do not see Diomedes giving up as he says. Diomedes is much more of a man than Agamemnon is. When Agamemnon is taunting Diomedes, Diomedes simply brushes it off and keeps his head up. Diomedes is a much superior fighter to Agamemnon. Question:How did Diomedes' fighting styles compare to those of his father?
Pg. 133 "Ah, no wonder the men of Troy and Argives under arms have suffered years of agony all for her, for such a woman Beauty, terrible beauty" This quote is from an older man talking to another man when both of them catch sight of Helen standing and looking out of a windowsill. I think this quote here represents two things at once. It first shows how the men attempt to justify the hundreds of deaths occurring outside their city walls. But at the same time, this quote really brings out the whole theme of this book: so many men on both sides have died for the sake of satisfying a many man's revenge. It's a poignant quote that makes the reader think about humanity, and how at the core, many wars or political unrests are often because of a group of men or women, and of how people's lives are sacrificed for a few men or women's opinions.
"How lucky you are, son of Atreus, child of fortune, your destiny so blessed! Look at the vast Achaean armies you command!" This quote is spoken by Helen when she is looking at the battle from the tower. She observes and has a bit of a mental tug of war between Menelaus and Paris. Ultimately, her heart is still with the Achaeans showed by her astonishment and realization of how big of a deal she really is. I see how deep Homer tries to get into every single character he encounters in his righting, and it rivets me on the question "What is Homer's opinion on war?"
-Written by Shankar Choudhury of Hanover High School in New Hampshire in America on the continent of North America on Planet Earth in the solar system SG2-13H in the Milky Way Galaxy in local cluster 54 in local super cluster 6 in Universe 1.
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ReplyDeletePage 177 “Doesn’t the son of Tydeus know, down deep, the man who fights the gods does not live long?”
ReplyDeleteConnection:
Dione, Aphrodite’s mother, says this quote when she is trying to comfort her by telling her that Diomedes will have an unfortunate ending. I chose this quote because it is a theme in Greek mythology that you see again and again. For example, Otus and Ephialtes had huge egos and thought they were so superior to the gods. They even managed in kidnapping Ares. But they met an unhappy fate and were outwitted by Artemis, who made them kill each other.
Page 192 “But now, wild as a black cyclone twisting out of a cloudbank, building up from the day’s heat, blasts and towers-so brazen Ares looked to Tydeus’ son Diomedes.”
Musing:
I thought this was a really good example of what Mr. Bourne was talking about in class today. He said a lot of times in Greek myths the poet will use what seems like a really lengthy description to explain something. But I think that it sometimes helps the writing. Like in this quote for example you can really tell just how mad Ares is.
Discussion Question: How much power does Zeus really have? I know he’s the Father of the gods and men, but it seems like Hera has a lot of influence over him. If I was him I would just overrule her.
Page 148: "Just think what thanks, what fame yo'd win in the eyes of all the Trojans, Prince Paris most of all. The first among all, you'd bear off shining, priceless gifts from him."
ReplyDeleteMusing: I really this part of the story, as Athena is ordered to make the Trojans attack the Greeks and break the truce. Rather than using Godly force to control the events that take place with some kind of telekenesis, she uses cunning and wisdom to change the course of events. I think this passage really showed humans as pathetic creatures that will do anything for power and recognition. It represents us as slaves of our emotion, which I think in many ways is true of human beings- this passage brings out the sadness and shame in this fact.
Page 100: "At that command the dream went winging off, and passing quickly along the fast trim ships, made for the king and found him soon, sound asleep in his tent."
Musing: I just thought this was another really creative way for the Gods to change the course of events for the mortals. Once again, instead of using force to adjust what happens, Zeus delicately sends a dream telling Agamemnon to attack the Trojans, while he is sleeping. I have heard many theories to explain how dreams come about and what they mean, but messages from the Gods is one I have never heard.
Discussion Question: How much of this war is actually decided by mortals? Do all events on Earth in this story happen as a result of the Gods' will?
1. “If Aphrodite daughter of Zeus slips into battle, she’s the one to stab with your sharp bronze spear” P. 168
ReplyDeleteMusing: This seemed like a rather stupid thing for Tydides to agree to. I understand why Athen would try and get a mortal to fight her battles for her and get Tydides to fight Athena since basically the whole war is based on their battle. I don’t however understand why Tydides would agree to this. They even say later in the book “Doesn’t the son of Tydeus know, down deep, the man who fights the gods does not live long?” Pg 177. It seems by this point most people would know that stabbing a god is extremely dangerous.
2. “Round her beloved son her glistening arms went streaming, flinging her shining robe before him, only a fold but it blocked the weapons hurtling towards his body” Pg. 174
Musing: The gods seem to have meddle quite a bit in the lives of humans. It seems almost like the gods have more to do with the outcome of the war then the humans themselves do. On almost every page they are saving a human from their death or even riding with them into battle. Aphrodite and Athena in particular are constantly healing and protecting humans.
Discussion question: Do you think that the gods have more effect on the outcome of the war or the humans do?
1. “Tydeus’ gallant son, he rages so with a god beside him—not alone, no” (p. 170)
ReplyDeleteAs Diomedes is coming to kill Pandarus, Pandarus realizes that Diomedes has a god on his side. I noticed this because I imagine that it would be extremely frustrating to be fighting against an enemy who was backed by a god. I am impressed that Pandarus still has confidence that he can win this fight and kill Diomedes, since he is basically challenging a god.
2. “Sarpedon, master strategist of the Lycians, what compels you to cringe and cower here?” (p. 185)
This is just one example of all the taunting that all the fighters in this book do. They especially target people who aren’t running in the front lines putting their lives in danger. This quote is a good example of that because they state that Sarpedon is the master strategist, which is an extremely important and challenging role, but no one accepts that because, to them, a hero must be viciously killing people and putting himself at risk. No one values people like Sarpedon who are just as necessary, if not more so, than the spearmen and archers, to the overall success of the army.
Question: Why are some gods/goddesses (like Aphrodite) very involved in a lot of stories and more well-known, while others (like Dione) are rarely mentioned?
1. Page 107: "'...No, my soft friends, wretched excuses- women, not men of Achaea!" Odysseus is trying to degrade the men by calling them women. I chose this quote because it's something that still happens in the present day. For example, I've heard many times, in TV shows and more, "you throw like a girl," said to a boy meaning that he does not throw well or throws weakly.
ReplyDelete2. Page 139: "This is more than I can bear, I tell you- to watch my son do battle with Menelaus, loved by the War-god, right before my eyes. Zeus knows, no doubt, and every immortal too, which fighter is doomed to end all this in death." Priam, Paris's dad, knows his son is about to die, and doesn't talk his son out of fighting. Instead, he flees and doesn't want to watch the fight. This surprised me.
Clarifying Question: If it was so obvious to every immortal who would win the fight between Paris and Menelaus, why did Paris agree with Hector to challenge Menelaus in the first place?
#1. Page 181: "Out of his rich guarded chamber the god himself launched Aeneas now, driving courage into his heart and the captain took his place amidst his men." Here Aries, the god, is instilling courage into Aeneas encouraging him to fight. It looks to us like it is Aries persuading Aeneas to fight. That maybe without his encouragement Aeneas may not have had the drive to do so. And maybe this dependence on someone else is a negative thing. But to the people that would have listened to the Iliad the God driving courage into a mortal is nothing but a compliment, showing that the God thinks him worthy of his encouragement. This can relate to God's influence on religious people today. And that some people believe that God will guide them and advise them to do what is right.
ReplyDelete#2. Page 150: "The lord of men Agamemnon shuddered, frightened to see the dark blood gushing from the wound." This is surprising in a way because the Greeks enjoyed and were so accustomed to violence. Violence was their entertainment. This quote shows how these characters and people in general have a human side to them. And that it is only human and natural to feel fear and be afraid of violence. This also makes me think about the Iliad and how we are reading about such violent occurrences yet we distance ourselves and don't fully process what we're reading.
Clarifying Question: How do mortals and men make gods do what they want?
“And now you threaten to strip me of my prize in person— the one i fought for long and hard, and sons of Achaea handed her to me. My honors never equal yours” (82-83)
ReplyDeleteOpinion: I think that Achilles has a valid point here. Agamemnon realizes he has no choice but to give up Chryseis and so he decides to take Briseis from Achilles. I think this is very unfair because it is clear that Achilles has done most of the work and it think it is unfair for Agamemnon to take Briseis. To add to this Agamemnon does not bother to fight for another woman, but instead complains about his prize being “snatched away” (81) and rudely says “i will take a prize myself—your own, or Ajax or Odysseus prize” (82).
“Seeing his anger flare, field marshal Agamemnon smiled broadly and took back his taunts at once” (157)
Musing: Here, Agamemnon insults Odysseus by accusing him of doing nothing and cowardly “skulking out of range” (156). Agamemnon does this because it is his method of encouraging his troops. I thought that this quote was ironic because Odysseus is supposed to be the cleverest commander yet he is easily fooled by Agamemnon.
Question: Is Agamemnon still respected by the Archaens even though he is really selfish, and clearly causes many problems because of his selfishness.
1. "Aeneas the Trojan captain checked him sharply: 'Not talk of turning for home! No turning the tide till we wheel and face this man with team and car and fight it out with weapons hand-to-hand" p. 171
ReplyDeleteConnection (text-to-test): I think it is very interesting that on the next page, (172) Diomedes says a very similar phrase when talking about the fight they are about to endure: "Not a word of retreat. You'll never persuade me. It's not my nature to shrink from battle, cringe in fear with the fighting strength still steady in my chest. [...] I'll meet them man-to-man."
2. “If Aphrodite daughter of Zeus slips into battle, she’s the one to stab with your sharp bronze spear” P. 168
Opinion: I find it interesting that Hera suggests that it would be wiser to fight Aphrodite than any other god. I believe that it would actually be just as foolish given that she has shown considerable power earlier in the book, and she is a daughter of Kronos. To affront any god and attack them does not seem appropriate in any circumstance. I believe that Athena is putting her anger at Aphrodite above common sense.
Discussion Question: Who would have won the fight between Tydides and Diomedes had the gods not interfered? Was a struggle between the gods just being manifested through a human war?
"Hear me Trojans, Achaeans geared for combat - home I go to windy Illium…to end all this in death." (138-139)
ReplyDeleteText-to-text(?): This is a rare glimpse into the emotional heart of the classic stony-faced soldier/man of Grecian literature. The tale of Agamemnon sacrificing his daughter for fair winds, etc. show that a "hero" will do anything for a favourable outcome. Here, Priam cannot bear to see the sure demise of his beautiful son Paris. The king is not only showing compassion for his son, sad that he is to die, but is so struck with grief that he must retire, too cowardly to watch the act.
"And Helen in all her radiance…dear land of their fathers." (136)
Musing: I wonder if Helen is beginning to regret her decisions. She was previously convinced by Aphrodite to come to the battlefield because she missed her previous companions, and now she sees that two of her dear friends are dead, forever gone to her. Before this quote when she is explaining to Priam the warriors, she seems quite homesick and nostalgic.
Question: Did Helen of her own accord truly, loving Paris, or is she just playing the field as she did with Menelaus before?
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ReplyDelete1.
ReplyDeletePg. 169: "Now he'd never welcome his two sons home from war, alive in the flesh..."
Musing: Even though everyone fighting in the battles seem to be bloodthirsty and brutal, a longing for home and family is continuously mentioned throughout the book. They seem to need a lot of pep talks to get angry, even though they are extremely violent during battles. It's hard to imagine that these bloodthirsty killing machines are also just "regular" guys who just want to go home to their wives.
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Pg. 176: "Bear up now, despite your heartsick grief. How many gods who hold the halls of Olympus have had to endure such wounds from mortal men..."
Musing: I never realized that gods could be injured by "mortal men." I always pictured them to be larger than life, but it seems like most of the gods, including Zeus, have been harmed by men. I suppose that's why the gods tend to strike down mortals who become too strong. I also find it surprising that Aphrodite is so upset by her wound. I expected her to act more resilient instead of immediately abandoning Aeneas and heading off to Olympus to get healed.
Question: Compared to mortal men, how much more invincible and stronger are the gods?
1.) "But the shining archer Pandarus marked him storming down the plain, smashing the Trojan lines before him." (Page 167, Book 5, Lines 104-105).
ReplyDeleteThis reminds me of men Achilles is shot down, except for Diomedes is able to survive the wound and continue fighting. The Trojans seem to have a tendency to shoot down their enemies with arrows more so than the Greeks.This is not surprising because Apollo and Artemis (the immortal archers) were more on the side of the Trojans. Later, Apollo guides Paris' arrow to bring down Achilles. I thought the association between the Trojans and archery was interesting because archers are thought to be more cowardly in Greek Mythology. They're not really in the thick of battle, and they're taking down their opponents in an underhanded way. Pandarus seems weak compared to the fighting strength of Diomedes.
2.) "And now the prince, the captain of men Aeneas would have died on the spot if Zeus's daughter had not marked him so quickly, his mother Aphrodite" (Page 174, Lines 347-349). This just goes to show the meddling of the gods. Aeneas is saved multiple times throughout the Iliad, because the gods foresee his future, and take it upon themselves to meddle in the affairs of mortals.
Question: Would Diomedes have won the battle if the gods had not interfered. and how would that have changed the course of the war, if any?
page 148- "As Achaeans... Inside him."
ReplyDeleteOpinion : This passage is when Athena goes into the trojan army and incites the archer to shoot an arrow at Menelaus. This shows that the gods were eager to start the fight between troy and the greeks. I think that this is a very important event in the book because it is the start to the many years of fighting. I also think that it is a very strange thing for Athena to do, because I feel the morale of the greeks depend on how Menelaus is doing.
page 162- "So he cried... She hurtled through the onset."
Opinion- I think that it is very interesting that the Gods and Goddesses are actually directly engaged in the battle. They encourage the men directly because they either like or dislike the other side. I think that it would be very intimidating to have a goddess fighting for the opposing side, especially Athena because she is the goddess of battle.
Question: Can The Trojans Hear Athena Yelling At And Encouraging The Greeks?
pg. 172 “Not a word of retreat. You’ll never persuade me. It’s not my nature to shrink from battle, cringe in fear”
ReplyDeleteI thought this was interesting in contrast to what we said about Agamemnon in class on Wednesday. Our perception of Agamemnon thus far was that he was not as courageous and willing to fight as some of the others. Even if our perception is not completely true it is not clear that Agamemnon really is a great fighter. Diomedes is making it very clear that he will not have the same reputation as Agamemnon and is willing to sacrifice his life in order to fight for what he believes in.
pg. 181 ""And how they thrilled to see him alive, safe, unharmed and marching back to their lines, his soul ablaze for war, but his men asked him nothing. The labor of battle would not let them"
I thought this part was interesting because it shows the importance of suppressing ones feelings in battle. In class we talked about how bloodthirsty and violent some of the people were during this time. The soldiers were able to push themselves to physical extremes in part because of their ability to forget their emotions and focus solely on the task at hand.
Question: How do the fighters decide which god/goddess to pray to and ask for help? It seems like deciding who to ask would be very difficult because each god/goddess has very different abilities and powers.
1) p. 141: “…enraged with brazen spear, mad for the kill but Aphrodite snatched Paris away, easy work for a god, wrapped him in swirls of mist and set him down in his bedroom filled with scent.”
ReplyDeleteMusing: I thought it was interesting how Aphrodite can often be thought of as deceitful in her path to get love, but in Paris’ case, she is coming through for him. Though what she is doing can be frowned upon, and in my opinion should be, she is fulfilling her promise of Helen to Paris. I also found it interesting how Aphrodite stepped into battle to protect Paris, even though she is not at all remotely connected to war.
2) p. 150: “Picture a woman dyeing ivory blood red… a Carian or Maeonian staining a hors’s cheekpiece…”
Musing: I thing that the description in this line (and the text that continues) shows the depth of the wound that has been sent by Athena, physically. Emotionally, the wound seems to be even deeper, especially for Agamemnon who then rallies his troops and goes into battle.
Question: Discussion: Did the way Achilles was raised effect how he acts? Did his parents, Peleus and Thetis, have an effect on his personality?
Pg. 147 “Excellent! The three cities that I love best of all are Argos and Sparta, Mycenae with streets as broad as Troy’s. Raze them—whenever they stir the hatred in your hears. My cities…I will never rise in their defense, not against you—I’d never grudge your pleasure.”
ReplyDeleteAt first, when I read this, I was confused as to why Hera would just give up against Zeus. I read it again to try to understand and I realized she was being sarcastic in the first few lines and then justifying why she would not help her cities. I think she’s trying to irk Zeus, even though she knows she won’t get her way. She’s trying to make him feel as guilty as possible while he makes sure the warriors of her favorite cities get attacked before they can attack.
Pg. 178 “Fighting is not for you, my child, the works of war. See to the works of marriage, the slow fires of longing. Athena and blazing Ares will deal with all the bloodshed.”
This stood out to me because it shows that not all the Gods stand at the same level. Although it was important to have a god or goddess of love, Aphrodite got looked down upon when she tried to help with a battle. If any other god had done what Aphrodite did, they would have been thanked, not laughed at. It just seems like people didn’t take Aphrodite as seriously as other the other gods. And, in a way, that makes it seem like she is less important.
Question: Clarifying: Were gods and goddesses of war looked up to more than the other gods?
Pg. 152 "King Agamemnon's hour. You would not find him asleep, not cringing a moment, hanging back from the struggle-- he pressed for battle now where men win glory."
ReplyDeleteThis quote portrays Agamemnon as stubborn. It talks about how Agamemnon did not even want to win the battle for a purpose but simply for the glory of victory. Agamemnon liked to be in charge but from afar. He liked to feel he was powerful and had complete control over every situation. Backing down was something that Agamemnon was not about to do as we can see from this quote. Although Agamemnon's motives and reasoning may not have been all great he does deserve credit for sticking with what he believes, even if it were for stubborn reasons.
Pg. 172 "But powerful Diomedes froze him with a glance: 'Not a word of retreat. You'll never persuade me. It's not my nature to shrink from battle, cringe in fear with the fighting strength still stead in my chest.'"
I thought this quote gave a wonderful description of Diomedes. As we see, Diomedes is a fighter until the end. We do not see Diomedes giving up as he says. Diomedes is much more of a man than Agamemnon is. When Agamemnon is taunting Diomedes, Diomedes simply brushes it off and keeps his head up. Diomedes is a much superior fighter to Agamemnon.
Question:How did Diomedes' fighting styles compare to those of his father?
Pg. 133 "Ah, no wonder the men of Troy and Argives under arms have suffered years of agony all for her, for such a woman Beauty, terrible beauty"
ReplyDeleteThis quote is from an older man talking to another man when both of them catch sight of Helen standing and looking out of a windowsill. I think this quote here represents two things at once. It first shows how the men attempt to justify the hundreds of deaths occurring outside their city walls. But at the same time, this quote really brings out the whole theme of this book: so many men on both sides have died for the sake of satisfying a many man's revenge. It's a poignant quote that makes the reader think about humanity, and how at the core, many wars or political unrests are often because of a group of men or women, and of how people's lives are sacrificed for a few men or women's opinions.
"How lucky you are, son of Atreus, child of fortune, your destiny so blessed! Look at the vast Achaean armies you command!"
This quote is spoken by Helen when she is looking at the battle from the tower. She observes and has a bit of a mental tug of war between Menelaus and Paris. Ultimately, her heart is still with the Achaeans showed by her astonishment and realization of how big of a deal she really is. I see how deep Homer tries to get into every single character he encounters in his righting, and it rivets me on the question "What is Homer's opinion on war?"
-Written by Shankar Choudhury of Hanover High School in New Hampshire in America on the continent of North America on Planet Earth in the solar system SG2-13H in the Milky Way Galaxy in local cluster 54 in local super cluster 6 in Universe 1.