Homework Responses for Hal Bourne's Greek Myths students.
This page is intended for homework responses for Hal Bourne's Greek Myths students.
When directed to do so by the calendar, please respond to the questions listed below. You can either respond to the question or to one of your peers' comments.
Wednesday, December 1, 2010
RWR #2
Enter your RWR here. See handout for instructions.
"You scratch my foot and you're vaunting all the same But who cares? A woman or idiot boy could wound me so." Pg. 309
Musing: It's interesting how no one really views Paris as a warrior. He started the Trojan War, but really doesn't play a major role in any of the battles. Even though Diomedes has been wounded by his arrow, it's clear that he doesn't perceive it as a "battle wound," but more as an annoying affliction.
"Fight for your country - that is the best, the only omen! Pg. 333
Musing: I think this quote really captures why Hector is fighting and what kind of mindset he has. Unlike Achilles, he isn't fighting for eternal glory, but for the sake of his country. I also find it interesting how Hector disregards the eagle and the snake, especially considering the fact that he is getting a lot of aid from Zeus. It seems to me like that is a pretty clear sign from Zeus, but Hector doesn't pay any attention to it.
Question: Was it a mistake on Hector's part to disregard the eagle?
Page 306 “What’s wrong with us? Forgetting our battle-fury? Come here, old friend, stand by me! What humiliation-if Hector with that flashing helmet takes our ship!”
Musing: I think it’s interesting how the Achaeans still try to fight on, even though they have said many times how they know that Zeus is not on their side. They must know that since Zeus is not with them, they have little hope at winning. But still, the Greeks don’t give up. They could easily just retreat and sail home in the night, but it seems as if returning with empty ships would hurt their pride too much to do so. This shows just how important pride is to them.
Page 313 “Nestor the noble charioteer did not resist. He mounted his car at once as Aslepius’ son, Machaon born of the famous healer swung abroad.”
Musing: Usually Nestor is always saying how if only he were still young, he would be killing people left and right and how he used to be so brave in battle. But here it seems as if he is actually a little cowardly. As the text says, he doesn’t resist at all when Machaon tells him to return to the ships. I certainly don’t blame him for wanting to return safely, but for someone who boasts so much, this is definitely out of character. It’s possible that the reason why he says how he wishes he could fight is just to rally the troops.
Discussion question: Patroclus and Achilles are really good friends, yet when Patroclus goes to visit Nestor you can see that he doesn’t really approve of Achilles’ anger. Does Patroclus just not mention his opinion to Achilles, or does Achilles know of his disapproval? If he knows, why does their friendship still work?
p.328 So Polydamas urged. His plan won Hector over-- less danger, more success--and down he leapt" Musing: I noticed this line because it seemed off to me when I first read it. We've spent this entire book and class so far discussing and reading examples of the ancient Greek obsession with honor and being a real warrior, etc. However, the fact that Homer specifies that the plan was appealing to Hector because it included less danger goes against everything I've understood about their idea of a hero. Shouldn't he value danger just as much (or even more) than success? That would make him a "real man," which is what was valued for a hero in that time period. No one remembers the warriors who did something easily--they remember the ones who threw themselves into danger and were still successful.
p.331 "an eagle flying high... and clutching a monstrous bloody serpent in both talons, still alive, still struggling--it had not lost its fight, writhing back to strike it fanged the chest of its captor, right beside the throat--and agonized by the bites the eagle flung it away to earth" Musing: This is a description of a sign sent down from Zeus, but to me it seems like it is a general foreshadowing of the entire story of the Trojan War. At this point in the book, the Trojans are on the offensive, and being successful. They would be the eagle at this point, with the Achaeans (the serpent) right in their grasp to destroy. However, the Achaeans and the serpent both have some fight left in them. The serpent manages to bite the eagle in the chest--similarly, the Greeks manage to continue the war. Finally, the eagle drops the serpent (the serpent is victorious) and the Achaeans defeat the Trojans. I find these parallels really interesting, and wonder if Homer did this on purpose (I assume he did).
Question: Will Hector ever regret his decision to ignore the sign from Zeus and Polydamas' warnings? Or will it be the right choice?
p. 301, line 160: "Cunning Antimachus! So you're that man's sons? [...] Now pay for your father's outrage, blood for blood!" Musing: I found this stanza interesting because while Agamemnon was on a killing spree these two begged for mercy. Lineage is very important in ancient greek myths and it is an odd notion today to die for the actions of one's parents. Although back then this would have been a legitimate reason to kill someone. In many literatures throughout history, for example the Odysee and Macbeth, the kin of one's enemies are killed. This represents a large amount of progression in our society from these times.
P. 314, line 638: "But Father Zeus on the heights forced Ajax to retreat. He stood there a moment, stunned..." Musing: This line evokes the argument again that it is a war, no of men, but of gods. But the even more interesting part is, if Zeus could just force all of the soldiers as he does Ajax, then why doesn't he? Why does he chose to have this war and to pick a side but not just finish it. Perhaps he enjoys it and considers it a strategy game of sorts. I also wonder how many humans they beleived acted regularly on their own accord. This idea evokes many unanswerable questions.
Discussion Question: Why do the gods chose to fight this war if the have the power to end it?
Pg. 297: "Then over his shoulder Agamemnon slung his sword, golden studs at the hilt, the blade burnished bright and the scabbard sheathed in silver swung on golden straps, and he grasped a well-wrought shield to encase his body forged for rushing forays––beautiful, blazoned work." Musing: "Beautiful, blazoned work" is how I would describe the great translation done by Robert Fagles. In some way, he is able to depict the scenery in a beautifully heroic way, capturing all the important details. I almost felt as though I was watching a movie with inspirational music playing as Agamemnon runs to battle in slow-motion in his shining armor. Excellent scenery by Fagles. Pg. 301: "but him he killed on the ground, slashing off his arms with a sword, lopping off his head and he sent him rolling through the carnage like a log." Musing: This quotation really put this war into perspective for me. Throughout the story, war is glorified into a strategic game between two sides. Those who can kill more enemies are thought to be stronger and better than those who kill less. This line gave me an idea of the horrific tragedy that the Trojan War truly is. Death seems unnatural no matter how it is looked at, when in fact it is extremely natural as murder is the norm in the animal kingdom. These men were true animals. Question: What is the purpose of the constant depiction the happenings of war in this story? Is that just how it was told over generations, or is there a reason for that taking up the majority of this epic?
Pg. 298: "The pressure of combat locked them heat to head, lunging like wolves, and Stife with wild groans exulted to see them, glaring down at the melee, Strife alone of immortals hovering over fighters." The Achaeans in this example, and the Trojans throughout the book, and basically everyone in the Iliad is so encompassed by fighting. Fighting is their entertainment. It's where they show their worth. Violence is glorified in their society. Heroes are hero's of battle, hero's of violence, not usually heroes because of their heroic compassion. Zeus and other god's always pushing for more violence and more war. In book 11, the title is even "Agamemnon's Day of Glory." Titled so because in the beginning of the book Agamemnon went on a killing spree. This raises the questions: Why is violence always the answer? Is killing someone in war considered murder or heroic? Why is violence so glorified?
Pg. 333: "No, no, put our trust in the will of the mighty Zeus, king of the deathless gods and men who die. Bird signs! Fight for your country- that is the best, the only omen." This quote only shows how much faith they put into the gods. How they put all their trust into the gods, believing they are the ultimate ones, listening to what they say, doing what they order. When the gods put strength into the mortals they think of it as a huge honor. While people now would maybe think that shows how the mortals are incapable of winning or fighting on their own. We value independence, but the people back then valued their dependence on the gods. Questions: how does hector's obsession wth the gods affect his insight into real life? What would happen if the god's weren't there? How it affect society? The war? How did greeks view the birds?
Pg. 331“Just as the men tried to cross, a fatal bird-sign flashed before their eyes, an eagle flying high on left across their front and clutching a monstrous bloody serpent in both talons, still still struggling.” Musing: I think it is interesting that Hector has complete disregard for such a powerful image as given to them in the form of this bird sign. Even after his men tell him that is a omen from Zeus Hector refuses to retreat only saying that fighting for your country is the only omen not a bird sign. This is especially interesting because it has been shown that the gods have absolutely no trouble interfering and interacting with humans, you would think that a leader of an army would take such an event into more account than merely writing it off as a coincidence.
Pg. 333 “No, no put our trust in the will of the mighty Zeus, king of the deathless gods and men who die.” Musing: I think it’s interesting the men in the army have so much faith that they will because they believe that Zeus is on their side. It is especially interesting because Hector seems to be choosing what he interprets from Zeus. He believes that he wills them to win so they will but he also chooses to ignore the bird omen. Earlier when they are having trouble getting past the Argive defenses we also see them praying to Zeus to help them quickly if he truly plans for them to win the war.
Question: Do you think Hector was right ignoring the bird sign and taking Zeus at his word or do you think it was a mistake?
p. 309 - "So brave with you bow and arrows…round his body!" Opinion: I think the Greeks' downfall is their disrespect for the modernization of battle tactics. Though they used maneuvers such as the phalanx, they never got around to large scale strategy, especially those including other forms of combat than just a mob. They relied too much on hand-to-hand messy fighting to win personal glory, and less on "team" fighting.
pg. 318 "Now why is Achilles…winged by a stray shaft?" Musing: The elders are starting to get really mad at Achilles for his false concern. How long can he wait before acting? He seems to care for his injured countrymen yet he does nothing. What is his worth?
Question: How important are birds in Grecian culture?
"Coon was just dragging his brother footfirst, wild now to retrieve his own father's son, calling for help from all the bravest men - but as Coon hauled the body through the press Agamemnon lunged up, under his bossed shield..." (304) Musing/Opinion: At first I was surprised that Agamemnon continued on to kill Coon when all he was trying to do was retrieve his brother, Iphidamas, and return to his father and Troy. It's obvious that he was retreating. Now I realize, however, that it's not actually that surprising, because this is a war, and Agamemnon wants to kill as many Trojan warriors as possible. Also, we all know how much Agamemnon values his honor, so perhaps he did not like the fact that Coon shed his blood first before getting his brother. Agamemnon probably did not want Coon to have the last attack.
" 'I'll stand and fight, by god, and take the worst but little joy it will bring our comrades now. Zeus the king of the clouds has pitched on victory for the Trojans, not for us.' " (306) Connection/Musing: This connects to our discussion earlier on how much the gods affect the outcome and parts of the war. I'm impressed that even though Diomedes know (or at least thinks) that Greece will lose, he does not quit fighting, along with many other Achaeans.
Question: Does Nestor know, or at least suspect, that Patroclus will die if he goes into battle wearing Achilles's armor?
1. "So with Telamon's son Great Ajax then-- ... Stabbing his shield, full center, no letup."
Musing- I think that this event shows that the trojans know they have zeus on their side right now and they know that they have to use this advantage as much as possible, they keep trying to bring down Great Ajax when he has his back turned and his shield over his back, Meanwhile, the Argives also know that the trojans have the favor of zeus right now and they are not calling Great Ajax a coward or anything, they are just trying to protect him from the "Rain of Spears."
2. "They tore at the tower's outworks, pulled at battlements, heaving, trying to pry loose with levers the buttress stakes Acheans first drove in the earth to shore the rampart up."
Musing- I think that this is the first point in the book where it really sinks in how long the battle has been going and how the battlefield looks from end to end, It shows that the Argives had the time to erect these walls. It also creates a feeling that the armies are battling in a sort of valley between walls and cities.
“And the men like gangs of reapers slashing down the reaping-rows and coming closer, closer across the field of a warlord rich in wheat or barley--swaths by the armfuls falling thick-and-fast--so Achaeans and Trojans closed and slashed…” (298) Musing: Like we talked about in class, Homer has an amazing way of creating extended similes and metaphors that allow the reader a deeper view of a situation. In this case, he is describing the men as they are fighting, slaughtering the opposition. I agree with Jules in that a lot of credit is due to Fagles for his translation, however it is still important to acknowledge the initial writing was done by Homer. I also believe that the addition of these add to the possibility of the readers believing in the power of the gods. The similes and metaphors add a kind of airy description that could only be viewed by somebody that was there, maybe by the gods. “Bird-signs! Fight for your country--that is the best, the only omen!” (333) Musing: I know that Isabella already used this quote, but I also wanted to make a comment on it. I feel like it was very naive of Hector to ignore the clear signals that Zeus had sent. I find it honorable of him that he want to keep fighting for his country whether or not the gods want him too, but I think it’s important of him to think of the safety of his fellow countrymen as well. Question: After reading about Hector ignoring the signs that Zeus sent, it made me wonder if the soldiers realize the effect the gods have on the course of the battle.
“So brave with your bow and arrows—big bravado—glistening lovelocks, roving eye for girls! Come, try me in combat, weapons hand-to-hand—bow and spattering shafts will never help you then.” (309)
Musing: I think this quote depicts how archers were thought of. We’ve talked about how the archers really got no credit and were scoffed at because they couldn’t “fight like men” in hand to hand combat. Diomedes puts into words how everybody feels about archers in battle. Before this point, it was an underlying fact that we knew but never really heard, so this quote just proved it as true.
It was Zeus’s pleasure to hand the prize to Hector.” (331)
Musing: Quotes like this make me wonder how much of a battle is fought by gods and how much by the gods. It always seems like mortal armies do the dirty work, but never actually can affect the outcome because the gods and control everything that happens. It’s hard to tell what is a god’s doing and what happens when the gods aren’t paying attention. I don’t know if there is ever a way to tell but it seems like the gods control most big outcomes in a war because they all have their own favorites.
Question: If two fighters are the favorites of different gods, what would happen? Would the more powerful gods favorite win or would be come to a fight between gods?
"Father Zeus - so even you are an outright liar after all! I never dreamed these heroic Argive ranks could hold back our charge, our invincible arms" -pg 330
This quote illustrates how surprised the Trojans were when they charged the Achaeans and expected them to give inward like a pillow, but in fact they were putting up a lot of resistance and killing a lot of Trojans. I think this almost personalizes the fighting and of how despair could come up and crush any hope of winning a war. Anything could come up during the fighting. This quote also illustrates that sometimes you must prepare for more than what you expect.
"No one could fight him, stop him, none but the gods as Hector hurled through the gates and his eyes flashed like fire" -pg 340
This quote describes what happens when Trojan breaks the gate of the bullwark that leaves the ships open for storming. This quote describes Hector's determination being reinforced after proving his comrade wrong about the prophecy. Polydamas said that the sign of an eagle dropping a snake shows that the Trojans won't be successful with storming the ships and advises to wait for another day. I think this quote shows how terrifying a man can be, as it says, only the gods could stop Hector now. He was so intent on the slaughter of the Achaean armies that he forgets the prophecy.
Question: If the prophecy was different, say that the snake is dropped into the eagle's nest but strangles the chicks, what would the prophets or Polydamas say to Hector?
"There is a vast cave, down in the dark souding depths, mid-sea between Tenedos and Imbros' rugged cliffs...Here the god of the earthquake drove his horses down, he set them free of the yoke and flung before them heaps of ambrosia, fodder for them to graze. Round their hoofs he looped the golden hobbles never broken, never slipped, so there they'd stand, stock-still on the spot to wait their lord's return and off Poseidon strode to Achaea's vast encampment" (342). This quote shows how the gods can control the weather and the events that go on in the world. In this quote Poseidon is setting up for the earthquake that he has planned for the near future. The gods are able to use their powers to impact the world and the outcome of conflicts.
"So he shouted, lashing the rage and fighting-fury in every Trojan" (346). This quote shows Hector's short temper. When Hector becomes upset his fury is greater than that of every single Trojan soldier. This fury may be one of the things that makes Hector such a great fighter and makes him so successful.
"In the same breath the god who shakes the mainland struck both men with his staff and filled their hearts with strength and striking force" (343)
Musing: This quote shows when Poseidon the god of the sea gives godly powers to Igomeneus and when reading the quote i first noticed how similar it sounded to when Athena gave godly powers to Diomedes. Also since Poseidon is one of the "Big Three" i wondered if that could've effected the amount of power given to the characters.
"Suddenly down from the Mountain's rocky crags Poseidon stormed with giant, lightning strides and the looming peaks and tall timber quaked beneath his immortal feet as the sea lord surged on" (342)
Connection: This quote shows the mighty power of the god Poseidon and i connected this quote to the book Percy Jackson. In Percy Jackson, Poseidon is not talked about a lot, and it seems like he is very reserved and quite but i noticed that whenever he is talked about, it always brings about a significant change in the story. Like in this instance when he gives godly powers to Idomeneus.
Question: Why does fighting in this chapter seem to be more organized and planed while in other chapters the fighting is more chaotic?
"But Zeus drove a swirl of panic deep in their lines and down from the vaulting skies released a shower raining blood, for Zeus was bent on hurling down to the House of Death a rout of sturdy fighters." Lines 60-64, Page 298.
I liked this quote for it's descriptive qualities. It is a very good demonstration of how Homer utilizes description and gore in the story, but more importantly it demonstrates the power of the gods to interfere. In this scene Zeus is terrifying the Greeks, and he later tells Hector the opportune moment to strike.
"Hearing Achilles, forth he came from his shelter, striding up like the deathless god of war but from that moment on his doom was sealed." Lines 711-714.
This line is foreshadowing what happens later. Patroclus goes to Achilles to speak with him, and while the two are together, Homer says that Patroclus' doom is "sealed," while also referring to Ares. This shows that Patroclus will meet his fate on the battlefield. This happens later, when Patroclus, dressed as Achilles, is slain by Hector.
Question: By Greek mythology, everyone's fates are sealed from birth. Besides being granted immortality, is there anyway that one can have control over their own fate?
“With a dark glance the shrewd tactician, Odysseus wheeled on his commander.” (pg. 372)
I found this interesting because this was the second time in the book so far that Agamemnon has wanted to give up and sail back to Greece. It is also the second time that Odysseus stands up and motivates the troops to stay and continue fighting even though they are weak and injured. I think this connects back to the assumptions we made about Agamemnon at the beginning of the course and that some of them still hold true. For example, I think he is still acting like a coward in this situation because he would rather leave Troy without fighting than risk dying while fighting for his country.
“That eagle flying high on the left across our front, clutching this bloody serpent in both its talons” (pg. 332)
As the Trojans are about to cross the trenches to the Achaean line, the eagle flies over their left. Traditionally signs on the left mean bad things will happen in Greek Mythology. Polydamas sees this sign and thinks the Trojans should retreat, however, Hector decides to ignore the sign and keep going. I think that Hector’s ego is too big at this point to listen to other people and follow the signs that everyone else believes in.
Question: Is Hector ignoring the sign because he truly doesn’t believe in them or because he wants to prove his “worth” by proving Zeus wrong?
"Yes, soon they will kill you off, all the Achaean forces massed for assault, and then, bereft of you, better for me to sink beneath the earth. What other warmth, what comfort's left for me, once you have met your doom? Nothing but torment!" •It interests me how the families dealt with this war. These men were gone from home for years. They could have had children before they left and then by the time they got back (if they did survive) they would be grown up. How did the women deal with this? I understand some were about to see each other every so often but most didn't. How would they hear the news of their loved ones dead if they weren't of high standings? If their men did die was it right for the women to remarry eventually or did many kill themselves to be reunited with their loved one? These are they type of questions I would have liked to have answered or written more about in the book.
"But Apollo lord of the silver bow kept watch. No blind man's watch, no, Apollo saw Athena take Tydides in hand, and raging against her plunged into the main mass of Trojan fighters to rouse a Thracian captain" Page 293 lines 591-600 •Along with keeping track of all the fighters names in the iliad it was also difficult to keep track of all the immortals and which side they are on. It often seems are though they switch sides. They never really explain why each god/goddess chooses what side they are on. Sometime It has to do with their own relationships I know. I find it interesting how involved they seem to get even knowing the prophecy of the outcome of the war. They know they can't change it so why bother getting involved? Do the men fighting know exactly which immortals are on their side to pray to?
Question: Do the gods/goddesses have the ability to help their moral children who are fighting? Do they care enough for their mortal children and the outcome of their lives?
"You scratch my foot and you're vaunting all the same
ReplyDeleteBut who cares? A woman or idiot boy could wound me so."
Pg. 309
Musing: It's interesting how no one really views Paris as a warrior. He started the Trojan War, but really doesn't play a major role in any of the battles. Even though Diomedes has been wounded by his arrow, it's clear that he doesn't perceive it as a "battle wound," but more as an annoying affliction.
"Fight for your country - that is the best, the only omen!
Pg. 333
Musing: I think this quote really captures why Hector is fighting and what kind of mindset he has. Unlike Achilles, he isn't fighting for eternal glory, but for the sake of his country. I also find it interesting how Hector disregards the eagle and the snake, especially considering the fact that he is getting a lot of aid from Zeus. It seems to me like that is a pretty clear sign from Zeus, but Hector doesn't pay any attention to it.
Question: Was it a mistake on Hector's part to disregard the eagle?
Page 306
ReplyDelete“What’s wrong with us? Forgetting our battle-fury? Come here, old friend, stand by me! What humiliation-if Hector with that flashing helmet takes our ship!”
Musing: I think it’s interesting how the Achaeans still try to fight on, even though they have said many times how they know that Zeus is not on their side. They must know that since Zeus is not with them, they have little hope at winning. But still, the Greeks don’t give up. They could easily just retreat and sail home in the night, but it seems as if returning with empty ships would hurt their pride too much to do so. This shows just how important pride is to them.
Page 313
“Nestor the noble charioteer did not resist. He mounted his car at once as Aslepius’ son, Machaon born of the famous healer swung abroad.”
Musing: Usually Nestor is always saying how if only he were still young, he would be killing people left and right and how he used to be so brave in battle. But here it seems as if he is actually a little cowardly. As the text says, he doesn’t resist at all when Machaon tells him to return to the ships. I certainly don’t blame him for wanting to return safely, but for someone who boasts so much, this is definitely out of character. It’s possible that the reason why he says how he wishes he could fight is just to rally the troops.
Discussion question: Patroclus and Achilles are really good friends, yet when Patroclus goes to visit Nestor you can see that he doesn’t really approve of Achilles’ anger. Does Patroclus just not mention his opinion to Achilles, or does Achilles know of his disapproval? If he knows, why does their friendship still work?
p.328 So Polydamas urged. His plan won Hector over-- less danger, more success--and down he leapt"
ReplyDeleteMusing: I noticed this line because it seemed off to me when I first read it. We've spent this entire book and class so far discussing and reading examples of the ancient Greek obsession with honor and being a real warrior, etc. However, the fact that Homer specifies that the plan was appealing to Hector because it included less danger goes against everything I've understood about their idea of a hero. Shouldn't he value danger just as much (or even more) than success? That would make him a "real man," which is what was valued for a hero in that time period. No one remembers the warriors who did something easily--they remember the ones who threw themselves into danger and were still successful.
p.331 "an eagle flying high... and clutching a monstrous bloody serpent in both talons, still alive, still struggling--it had not lost its fight, writhing back to strike it fanged the chest of its captor, right beside the throat--and agonized by the bites the eagle flung it away to earth"
Musing: This is a description of a sign sent down from Zeus, but to me it seems like it is a general foreshadowing of the entire story of the Trojan War. At this point in the book, the Trojans are on the offensive, and being successful. They would be the eagle at this point, with the Achaeans (the serpent) right in their grasp to destroy. However, the Achaeans and the serpent both have some fight left in them. The serpent manages to bite the eagle in the chest--similarly, the Greeks manage to continue the war. Finally, the eagle drops the serpent (the serpent is victorious) and the Achaeans defeat the Trojans. I find these parallels really interesting, and wonder if Homer did this on purpose (I assume he did).
Question: Will Hector ever regret his decision to ignore the sign from Zeus and Polydamas' warnings? Or will it be the right choice?
p. 301, line 160: "Cunning Antimachus! So you're that man's sons? [...] Now pay for your father's outrage, blood for blood!"
ReplyDeleteMusing: I found this stanza interesting because while Agamemnon was on a killing spree these two begged for mercy. Lineage is very important in ancient greek myths and it is an odd notion today to die for the actions of one's parents. Although back then this would have been a legitimate reason to kill someone. In many literatures throughout history, for example the Odysee and Macbeth, the kin of one's enemies are killed. This represents a large amount of progression in our society from these times.
P. 314, line 638: "But Father Zeus on the heights forced Ajax to retreat. He stood there a moment, stunned..."
Musing: This line evokes the argument again that it is a war, no of men, but of gods. But the even more interesting part is, if Zeus could just force all of the soldiers as he does Ajax, then why doesn't he? Why does he chose to have this war and to pick a side but not just finish it. Perhaps he enjoys it and considers it a strategy game of sorts. I also wonder how many humans they beleived acted regularly on their own accord. This idea evokes many unanswerable questions.
Discussion Question: Why do the gods chose to fight this war if the have the power to end it?
Pg. 297: "Then over his shoulder Agamemnon slung his sword, golden studs at the hilt, the blade burnished bright and the scabbard sheathed in silver swung on golden straps, and he grasped a well-wrought shield to encase his body forged for rushing forays––beautiful, blazoned work."
ReplyDeleteMusing: "Beautiful, blazoned work" is how I would describe the great translation done by Robert Fagles. In some way, he is able to depict the scenery in a beautifully heroic way, capturing all the important details. I almost felt as though I was watching a movie with inspirational music playing as Agamemnon runs to battle in slow-motion in his shining armor. Excellent scenery by Fagles.
Pg. 301: "but him he killed on the ground, slashing off his arms with a sword, lopping off his head and he sent him rolling through the carnage like a log."
Musing: This quotation really put this war into perspective for me. Throughout the story, war is glorified into a strategic game between two sides. Those who can kill more enemies are thought to be stronger and better than those who kill less. This line gave me an idea of the horrific tragedy that the Trojan War truly is. Death seems unnatural no matter how it is looked at, when in fact it is extremely natural as murder is the norm in the animal kingdom. These men were true animals.
Question: What is the purpose of the constant depiction the happenings of war in this story? Is that just how it was told over generations, or is there a reason for that taking up the majority of this epic?
Pg. 298: "The pressure of combat locked them heat to head, lunging like wolves, and Stife with wild groans exulted to see them, glaring down at the melee, Strife alone of immortals hovering over fighters."
ReplyDeleteThe Achaeans in this example, and the Trojans throughout the book, and basically everyone in the Iliad is so encompassed by fighting. Fighting is their entertainment. It's where they show their worth. Violence is glorified in their society. Heroes are hero's of battle, hero's of violence, not usually heroes because of their heroic compassion. Zeus and other god's always pushing for more violence and more war. In book 11, the title is even "Agamemnon's Day of Glory." Titled so because in the beginning of the book Agamemnon went on a killing spree. This raises the questions: Why is violence always the answer? Is killing someone in war considered murder or heroic? Why is violence so glorified?
Pg. 333: "No, no, put our trust in the will of the mighty Zeus, king of the deathless gods and men who die. Bird signs! Fight for your country- that is the best, the only omen."
This quote only shows how much faith they put into the gods. How they put all their trust into the gods, believing they are the ultimate ones, listening to what they say, doing what they order. When the gods put strength into the mortals they think of it as a huge honor. While people now would maybe think that shows how the mortals are incapable of winning or fighting on their own. We value independence, but the people back then valued their dependence on the gods. Questions: how does hector's obsession wth the gods affect his insight into real life? What would happen if the god's weren't there? How it affect society? The war? How did greeks view the birds?
Pg. 331“Just as the men tried to cross, a fatal bird-sign flashed before their eyes, an eagle flying high on left across their front and clutching a monstrous bloody serpent in both talons, still still struggling.”
ReplyDeleteMusing: I think it is interesting that Hector has complete disregard for such a powerful image as given to them in the form of this bird sign. Even after his men tell him that is a omen from Zeus Hector refuses to retreat only saying that fighting for your country is the only omen not a bird sign. This is especially interesting because it has been shown that the gods have absolutely no trouble interfering and interacting with humans, you would think that a leader of an army would take such an event into more account than merely writing it off as a coincidence.
Pg. 333 “No, no put our trust in the will of the mighty Zeus, king of the deathless gods and men who die.”
Musing: I think it’s interesting the men in the army have so much faith that they will because they believe that Zeus is on their side. It is especially interesting because Hector seems to be choosing what he interprets from Zeus. He believes that he wills them to win so they will but he also chooses to ignore the bird omen. Earlier when they are having trouble getting past the Argive defenses we also see them praying to Zeus to help them quickly if he truly plans for them to win the war.
Question: Do you think Hector was right ignoring the bird sign and taking Zeus at his word or do you think it was a mistake?
p. 309 - "So brave with you bow and arrows…round his body!"
ReplyDeleteOpinion: I think the Greeks' downfall is their disrespect for the modernization of battle tactics. Though they used maneuvers such as the phalanx, they never got around to large scale strategy, especially those including other forms of combat than just a mob. They relied too much on hand-to-hand messy fighting to win personal glory, and less on "team" fighting.
pg. 318 "Now why is Achilles…winged by a stray shaft?"
Musing: The elders are starting to get really mad at Achilles for his false concern. How long can he wait before acting? He seems to care for his injured countrymen yet he does nothing. What is his worth?
Question: How important are birds in Grecian culture?
"Coon was just dragging his brother footfirst, wild now to retrieve his own father's son, calling for help from all the bravest men - but as Coon hauled the body through the press Agamemnon lunged up, under his bossed shield..." (304)
ReplyDeleteMusing/Opinion: At first I was surprised that Agamemnon continued on to kill Coon when all he was trying to do was retrieve his brother, Iphidamas, and return to his father and Troy. It's obvious that he was retreating. Now I realize, however, that it's not actually that surprising, because this is a war, and Agamemnon wants to kill as many Trojan warriors as possible. Also, we all know how much Agamemnon values his honor, so perhaps he did not like the fact that Coon shed his blood first before getting his brother. Agamemnon probably did not want Coon to have the last attack.
" 'I'll stand and fight, by god, and take the worst but little joy it will bring our comrades now. Zeus the king of the clouds has pitched on victory for the Trojans, not for us.' " (306)
Connection/Musing: This connects to our discussion earlier on how much the gods affect the outcome and parts of the war. I'm impressed that even though Diomedes know (or at least thinks) that Greece will lose, he does not quit fighting, along with many other Achaeans.
Question: Does Nestor know, or at least suspect, that Patroclus will die if he goes into battle wearing Achilles's armor?
Luke MacCormick-
ReplyDelete1. "So with Telamon's son Great Ajax then-- ... Stabbing his shield, full center, no letup."
Musing- I think that this event shows that the trojans know they have zeus on their side right now and they know that they have to use this advantage as much as possible, they keep trying to bring down Great Ajax when he has his back turned and his shield over his back, Meanwhile, the Argives also know that the trojans have the favor of zeus right now and they are not calling Great Ajax a coward or anything, they are just trying to protect him from the "Rain of Spears."
2. "They tore at the tower's outworks, pulled at battlements, heaving, trying to pry loose with levers the buttress stakes Acheans first drove in the earth to shore the rampart up."
Musing- I think that this is the first point in the book where it really sinks in how long the battle has been going and how the battlefield looks from end to end, It shows that the Argives had the time to erect these walls. It also creates a feeling that the armies are battling in a sort of valley between walls and cities.
“And the men like gangs of reapers slashing down the reaping-rows and coming closer, closer across the field of a warlord rich in wheat or barley--swaths by the armfuls falling thick-and-fast--so Achaeans and Trojans closed and slashed…” (298)
ReplyDeleteMusing: Like we talked about in class, Homer has an amazing way of creating extended similes and metaphors that allow the reader a deeper view of a situation. In this case, he is describing the men as they are fighting, slaughtering the opposition. I agree with Jules in that a lot of credit is due to Fagles for his translation, however it is still important to acknowledge the initial writing was done by Homer. I also believe that the addition of these add to the possibility of the readers believing in the power of the gods. The similes and metaphors add a kind of airy description that could only be viewed by somebody that was there, maybe by the gods.
“Bird-signs! Fight for your country--that is the best, the only omen!” (333)
Musing: I know that Isabella already used this quote, but I also wanted to make a comment on it. I feel like it was very naive of Hector to ignore the clear signals that Zeus had sent. I find it honorable of him that he want to keep fighting for his country whether or not the gods want him too, but I think it’s important of him to think of the safety of his fellow countrymen as well.
Question: After reading about Hector ignoring the signs that Zeus sent, it made me wonder if the soldiers realize the effect the gods have on the course of the battle.
“So brave with your bow and arrows—big bravado—glistening lovelocks, roving eye for girls! Come, try me in combat, weapons hand-to-hand—bow and spattering shafts will never help you then.” (309)
ReplyDeleteMusing: I think this quote depicts how archers were thought of. We’ve talked about how the archers really got no credit and were scoffed at because they couldn’t “fight like men” in hand to hand combat. Diomedes puts into words how everybody feels about archers in battle. Before this point, it was an underlying fact that we knew but never really heard, so this quote just proved it as true.
It was Zeus’s pleasure to hand the prize to Hector.” (331)
Musing: Quotes like this make me wonder how much of a battle is fought by gods and how much by the gods. It always seems like mortal armies do the dirty work, but never actually can affect the outcome because the gods and control everything that happens. It’s hard to tell what is a god’s doing and what happens when the gods aren’t paying attention. I don’t know if there is ever a way to tell but it seems like the gods control most big outcomes in a war because they all have their own favorites.
Question: If two fighters are the favorites of different gods, what would happen? Would the more powerful gods favorite win or would be come to a fight between gods?
"Father Zeus - so even you are an outright liar after all! I never dreamed these heroic Argive ranks could hold back our charge, our invincible arms"
ReplyDelete-pg 330
This quote illustrates how surprised the Trojans were when they charged the Achaeans and expected them to give inward like a pillow, but in fact they were putting up a lot of resistance and killing a lot of Trojans. I think this almost personalizes the fighting and of how despair could come up and crush any hope of winning a war. Anything could come up during the fighting. This quote also illustrates that sometimes you must prepare for more than what you expect.
"No one could fight him, stop him, none but the gods as Hector hurled through the gates and his eyes flashed like fire"
-pg 340
This quote describes what happens when Trojan breaks the gate of the bullwark that leaves the ships open for storming. This quote describes Hector's determination being reinforced after proving his comrade wrong about the prophecy. Polydamas said that the sign of an eagle dropping a snake shows that the Trojans won't be successful with storming the ships and advises to wait for another day. I think this quote shows how terrifying a man can be, as it says, only the gods could stop Hector now. He was so intent on the slaughter of the Achaean armies that he forgets the prophecy.
Question: If the prophecy was different, say that the snake is dropped into the eagle's nest but strangles the chicks, what would the prophets or Polydamas say to Hector?
Delete"There is a vast cave, down in the dark souding depths, mid-sea between Tenedos and Imbros' rugged cliffs...Here the god of the earthquake drove his horses down, he set them free of the yoke and flung before them heaps of ambrosia, fodder for them to graze. Round their hoofs he looped the golden hobbles never broken, never slipped, so there they'd stand, stock-still on the spot to wait their lord's return and off Poseidon strode to Achaea's vast encampment" (342).
ReplyDeleteThis quote shows how the gods can control the weather and the events that go on in the world. In this quote Poseidon is setting up for the earthquake that he has planned for the near future. The gods are able to use their powers to impact the world and the outcome of conflicts.
"So he shouted, lashing the rage and fighting-fury in every Trojan" (346).
This quote shows Hector's short temper. When Hector becomes upset his fury is greater than that of every single Trojan soldier. This fury may be one of the things that makes Hector such a great fighter and makes him so successful.
"In the same breath the god who shakes the mainland struck both men with his staff and filled their hearts with strength and striking force" (343)
ReplyDeleteMusing: This quote shows when Poseidon the god of the sea gives godly powers to Igomeneus and when reading the quote i first noticed how similar it sounded to when Athena gave godly powers to Diomedes. Also since Poseidon is one of the "Big Three" i wondered if that could've effected the amount of power given to the characters.
"Suddenly down from the Mountain's rocky crags Poseidon stormed with giant, lightning strides and the looming peaks and tall timber quaked beneath his immortal feet as the sea lord surged on" (342)
Connection: This quote shows the mighty power of the god Poseidon and i connected this quote to the book Percy Jackson. In Percy Jackson, Poseidon is not talked about a lot, and it seems like he is very reserved and quite but i noticed that whenever he is talked about, it always brings about a significant change in the story. Like in this instance when he gives godly powers to Idomeneus.
Question: Why does fighting in this chapter seem to be more organized and planed while in other chapters the fighting is more chaotic?
"But Zeus drove a swirl of panic deep in their lines and down from the vaulting skies released a shower raining blood, for Zeus was bent on hurling down to the House of Death a rout of sturdy fighters." Lines 60-64, Page 298.
ReplyDeleteI liked this quote for it's descriptive qualities. It is a very good demonstration of how Homer utilizes description and gore in the story, but more importantly it demonstrates the power of the gods to interfere. In this scene Zeus is terrifying the Greeks, and he later tells Hector the opportune moment to strike.
"Hearing Achilles, forth he came from his shelter, striding up like the deathless god of war but from that moment on his doom was sealed." Lines 711-714.
This line is foreshadowing what happens later. Patroclus goes to Achilles to speak with him, and while the two are together, Homer says that Patroclus' doom is "sealed," while also referring to Ares. This shows that Patroclus will meet his fate on the battlefield. This happens later, when Patroclus, dressed as Achilles, is slain by Hector.
Question: By Greek mythology, everyone's fates are sealed from birth. Besides being granted immortality, is there anyway that one can have control over their own fate?
“With a dark glance the shrewd tactician, Odysseus wheeled on his commander.” (pg. 372)
ReplyDeleteI found this interesting because this was the second time in the book so far that Agamemnon has wanted to give up and sail back to Greece. It is also the second time that Odysseus stands up and motivates the troops to stay and continue fighting even though they are weak and injured. I think this connects back to the assumptions we made about Agamemnon at the beginning of the course and that some of them still hold true. For example, I think he is still acting like a coward in this situation because he would rather leave Troy without fighting than risk dying while fighting for his country.
“That eagle flying high on the left across our front, clutching this bloody serpent in both its talons” (pg. 332)
As the Trojans are about to cross the trenches to the Achaean line, the eagle flies over their left. Traditionally signs on the left mean bad things will happen in Greek Mythology. Polydamas sees this sign and thinks the Trojans should retreat, however, Hector decides to ignore the sign and keep going. I think that Hector’s ego is too big at this point to listen to other people and follow the signs that everyone else believes in.
Question: Is Hector ignoring the sign because he truly doesn’t believe in them or because he wants to prove his “worth” by proving Zeus wrong?
"Yes, soon they will kill you off, all the Achaean forces massed for assault, and then, bereft of you, better for me to sink beneath the earth. What other warmth, what comfort's left for me, once you have met your doom? Nothing but torment!"
ReplyDelete•It interests me how the families dealt with this war. These men were gone from home for years. They could have had children before they left and then by the time they got back (if they did survive) they would be grown up. How did the women deal with this? I understand some were about to see each other every so often but most didn't. How would they hear the news of their loved ones dead if they weren't of high standings? If their men did die was it right for the women to remarry eventually or did many kill themselves to be reunited with their loved one? These are they type of questions I would have liked to have answered or written more about in the book.
"But Apollo lord of the silver bow kept watch. No blind man's watch, no, Apollo saw Athena take Tydides in hand, and raging against her plunged into the main mass of Trojan fighters to rouse a Thracian captain" Page 293 lines 591-600
•Along with keeping track of all the fighters names in the iliad it was also difficult to keep track of all the immortals and which side they are on. It often seems are though they switch sides. They never really explain why each god/goddess chooses what side they are on. Sometime It has to do with their own relationships I know. I find it interesting how involved they seem to get even knowing the prophecy of the outcome of the war. They know they can't change it so why bother getting involved? Do the men fighting know exactly which immortals are on their side to pray to?
Question: Do the gods/goddesses have the ability to help their moral children who are fighting? Do they care enough for their mortal children and the outcome of their lives?