Homework Responses for Hal Bourne's Greek Myths students.
This page is intended for homework responses for Hal Bourne's Greek Myths students.
When directed to do so by the calendar, please respond to the questions listed below. You can either respond to the question or to one of your peers' comments.
Wednesday, December 1, 2010
RWR #3
Enter your RWR here. See handout for instructions.
“Menelaus marked it all…plowed through the front to stand astride the body, braced like a mother cow lowing over a calf.”
Musing: I think it’s interesting how Menelaus is the one who marks Patroclus’ death. I haven’t really noticed a connection between Menelaus and Achilles. So I’m curious as to why he was the one to step up and defend the body. Is it just because he doesn’t want Achilles to be even more enraged? Or is Menelaus just defending a fellow soldier?
“You don the deathless arms of a great fighter-and all the other fighters tremble before him, true, but you, you killed his comrade, gentle, strong, and against all rights you ripped the immortal armor off his head and shoulders.”
Opinion: I agree with Zeus when he says this. If I were Hector I would definitely also be eager to take the famous armor off of Patroclus. That being said, I think that it’s a foolish thing to do; it outweighs the glory that may come from the actual armor. I think that Hector had to know that killing Patroclus in the first place would seriously anger Achilles. And maybe he was overcome with adrenaline and so bent on getting the armor, but he should have thought about what would happen to him when Achilles sees him wearing his armor. I think that it will have a big consequence.
Discussion question: Why is such a big deal made over Patroclus’ body?
“What can I do? If I leave this splendid gear and desert Patroclus—who fell here fighting, all to redeem my honor— won’t any comrade curse me, seeing me break away? But if I should take on Hector and Hector’s Trojans alone, in single combat—trying to save my pride— won’t they encircle me, one against so many?” (pg. 445)
This reminded me of the discussion we had with Dr. Bass about how leaving a legacy was one of the most important things for the soldiers. Menelaus is torn about what to do after Patroclus died partly because he doesn’t know what will be best for him personally and partly because he doesn’t know what the best decision will be for his army.
“But the will of Zeus will always overpower the will of men” (pg. 448)
I wonder why the gods haven’t done more to end the war at this point. We have seen their influences at times but it seems as though they would be sick of the fighting after 10 years. The soldiers don’t think they have a chance if Zeus isn’t on their side so why doesn’t he just end the war? Zeus always seems worried about disappointing or getting on the wrong side of the other gods but it doesn’t seem like the war will ever end if he doesn’t step in more.
Question: Why do both armies make such a big deal about bringing Patroclus’ body back to their camps? It seems counterproductive to fight and have many more people die over one body. Also, why is it so important to take the armor of fallen soldiers?
Musing: p.442 "so the red-haired captain bestrode Patroclus now, shielding his corpse with spear and round buckler" I have noticed this sort of thing come up in the Iliad a lot, where a man dies and his companions protect his body, and I can't help but question this. Obviously I appreciate that they are upset he is dead and want to honor him, but it seems like a much better choice to protect yourself and continue fighting toward the goal the man died for, but again and again the characters stop to save the corpses of their comrades. And later, Menelaus agonizes over whether to try to kill Hector or to save Patroclus' body. To me, the choice is obvious--fight Hector--but Menelaus is really stumped. I don't understand why they put so much value in a dead body.
Musing: p. 443 "Home he went... and brought no cheer to his loyal, loving wife and devoted parents." Menelaus says this to bring down Hyperenor, yelling at him for calling Menelaus weak. This quote, basically saying that Hyperenor is not a good husband or son, struck me as out of place with the other taunts, which are all about war and war skills and glories. I thought this was cool because it shows that Menelaus (and, most likely, all the other Greeks) valued being a good family member, as well as being a good warrior. Sometimes I get the impression that the only thing important to these men is killing other men, so it is nice to see them appreciate something nicer, like making their wives happy.
Question: Many men who fought long and hard have died in this book, but none of their deaths were as dramatic or important-seeming as Patroclus'. Almost an entire chapter is dedicated to the scuffle over his body. Why is this? Why is the death of Patroclus a bigger deal than anyone else's?
“But grief bore down on Hector, packing his dark heart as he scanned the battle lines and saw the worst at once…” (pg 445)
This was the first quote (that I remember) that pointed out grief during battle. I know Hector was upset because Euphorbus was killed, but previously when the Trojans and Achaeans were fighting, there was no grief. They grieved when they had time to bury the dead but only ever felt rage when in battle. It made Hector seem a little more human than he had before. Up until that point I thought of him more as a killing machine, not really as a man.
“Quickly, you and Meriones shoulder up the body, carry it off the lines. We’re right behind you fighting the Trojans, fighting this Prince Hector.” (pg 465)
Throughout this entire book the Achaeans have been protecting the body of Patroclus. Even that made it obvious that Patroclus’ death was a bigger deal than all the other deaths. When Ajax and Menelaus made a plan to remove Patroclus’ dead body off the battle field, it solidified that he was a very important part of the Achaean army. I think that’s because he was close friends with Achilles but it still seems like they spent a very long time trying to keep his body safe instead of attacking the Trojans.
I thought the whole point of the Achaeans being in Troy was to fight the Trojans, so why would they spend so much time protecting a dead body instead of fighting? Is it because Patroclus was Achilles’ best friend or because he was an important person to them all?
"There is nothing alive more agonized than man of all that breathe and crawl across the Earth." Pg. 457
Musing: Although this quote was directed to the immortal horses of the chariot, I think it could apply to Achilles as well. Achilles knows his fate, his death, is inevitable, and all he can do is "breathe and crawl across the Earth." He can't change what's going to happen, unlike Zeus. I also think it's interesting how Zeus admits that he understands that controlling the fate of humans is terrible for them. The gods have the power to protect the humans from battle, or put them in even more danger and the humans themselves can't do anything about it.
"Dear god, enough! Any idiot boy could see how Father Zeus himself supports these Trojans. All weapons land, no matter who flings them, brave fighter or bad--Zeus guides them all to the mark. Ours all clatter to ground." Pg. 462
Musing: I find it interesting that although the Achaeans know Zeus supports the Trojans, they continue to fight. I thought that once they realized Zeus is on Team Trojan, they would stop fighting as hard. Maybe they wouldn't give up immediately, but I imagine that eventually it would seem almost pointless to keep trying.
Question: Is it their pride that keeps the Achaeans fighting or do they believe they can win?
“Hector, tearing the famous armor off Patroclus, tugged hard at the corpse, mad to hack the head from the neck with bronze and drag the trunk away to glut the dogs of Troy.” (446) Musing: I couldn’t imagine ever going into a war where I was forced to shoot guns at people, killing those who I had never met before without any reason. I could never imagine then, going into a battle where I was forced to slice men down with my own two hands, only a thin piece of metal between us. After all of this, I would never dare to go the man I killed and taught the enemy my stealing his armor as a prize. This disgusts me. It feels gluttonous and evil to do this. “The deadly Archer--Aenas knew him at once, looking straight in his eyes and the fighter loosed a rousing shout at Hector…” (453) Musing: Though not an incredibly important moment, I felt it was worth noting that this is a very rare time in the Iliad. In this case, it is an archer who is yelling at a skilled, veteran warrior. Usually, the archers are considered less competent as they stand towards the back and aren’t participating in hand to hand combat. Even more shocking, Aeneas, the archer, is defying Hector, one of the greatest warriors of his time. Question: Why do you think getting the armor of the person they kill is so important?
"Hungry as wolves that rend and bolt raw flesh, hearts filled with battle frenzy that never dies...belching bloody meat, but the fury, never shaken," (417)
Musing: This description really leaves me thinking how the men must have felt on both sides. The wolves in this description are not very strong by themselves, but as a pack they can take down the biggest prey their jaws can bite through. The Greeks were the same way, fabled for their team effort in battle strategy. Their prowess in battle with their phalanx was the reason why the Persians lost so many of their army to the spartans. Their battle strategy involving the individual soldiers working as a unit was so new and revolutionary that it was copied by some of the great empires such as the Macedonians and the Romans.
"all their courage quaked, their columns buckled, thinking swift Achilles had tossed to the winds his hard rage..each Trojan soldier glancing left and right - how could he escape from sudden, plunging death?" (421)
Musing: I think this quote really humanizes the Trojans (antagonists) to the readers. The soldiers think that Achilles has finally showed up to the battlefield. They have heard the tales of his conquest and prowess of battle. Even Hector fears for his life when he thinks about fighting Achilles. The Trojan soldiers know that they will get slaughtered if they try to fight Achilles. They can't even pierce his skin being the demigod he is. They know that their fate in battle is to certain death, and that the tide changes directions when Achilles shows up onto the battlefield.
"A gift of the son of Cronos, Zeus- Apollo too- they brought me down with all their deathless ease, they are the ones who tore the armor off my back." Page 440 Here Patroclus is dying but he won't admit death because of Hector. He wants to save his pride an integrity by telling Hector it was not him that killed him. Patroclus has reached an ultimate defeat but won't admit defeat by Hector. In the Iliad so much surrounds around pride. The people are motivated by their social standing, by their relationships with the gods, by competition. Who can rise to the occasion, who can kill, who can win. In addition to this he tells Hector he will soon die. "Take it to heart, I urge you, you too, you won't live long yourself, I sweat." Page 440 Why does Patroclus predict this? How does Patroclus know?
"But the power of Zeus will always over power the will of men, Zeus who strikes dear in even the bravest man of war and tears away his triumph, all in a lighting flash." Page 448 Zeus has all this power but doesn't seem to use it. He can do what ever he wants, control any man. Why does he let them fight for so long? So many people die and the battle is so long and tedious, lasting for a total of 10 years. Couldn't Zeus or the other gods just influenced the war to end the way they wanted? The gods have so much power. The mortals look up to them with such admiration and respect, in an unworldly manner. Why did Zeus not control the war more? The Trojans could've won right away. In the end the Trojans didn't even win. Didn't Zeus know that was going to happen? Why didnt Zeus stop this?
"I'll strap on the brave Achilles' armor, burnished armor I stripped from strong Patroclus when I killed him!" p.448 line 210 Opinion: I think it is very odd that someone would wear the armor of someone they had killed. I wonder whether it is to represent géras or because they prefer the armor. It is also strange that Patroclus wore Achilles' armor at all and I did not entirely understand the reasoning behind it. Either this is an odd custom or they particularly like his unique armor, which is complimented frequently.
"Ajax [...] speared him at close range through the bronze-cheeked helmet, the horsehair crest cracked wide open around the point, smashed by the massive spear and hand that drove it. His brains burst from the wound in sprays of blood, soaking the weapon's socket..." p.452 line 337 Connection: I thought that this was a very fitting exemplification of all of the battle scenes in the Iliad. It also connected to the detail that we see in the rest of the book. Expressions and epithets are added on to names and odd details are mentioned to describe things, such as the helmet. The gory illustration connects to the rest of the book because it is a classic type of detailed description that we often come across.
Question: Why is it so important to protect Patroclus' body and why is Achilles' armor so important to all of them?
P. 333: "Bird Signs! Fight for your country––that is the best, the only omen!" I was curious as to whether Hector would be punished for this line, as he is going against the sign from the Gods, or if he would commended for bravely, and selflessly fighting for his side. It is interesting that in this society, the thing that is most respected by humans is courage, while in today's society, courage seems to have little do with most of our lives. Moderation, and consistency are qualities that are much more valued now a days. Courage is often simply viewed as stupid or reckless behavior. Their society seems more equivalent to teenagers' behavior now a days: making dangerous choices, narcissism, and feelings of invincibility.
P. 333: "You tell me to put my trust in birds, flying off on their long wild wings? Never." Hector's point of view actually made sense to me here, in some ways. It's stupid of him to go against a clear sign of the Gods. However, the Gods seem to be no different than humans in terms of rash decision making, petty quarrels, and being prays of their own emotions and temptations. The only difference to me seems to their immortality and superhuman powers. If one has observed the Gods, the powerful "signs", pep talks, and advantages they have given to each side have seemed to just about even out. It almost seems as though the Trojan is more a war between gods than one between humans. The humans are really just puppets in a lot of ways. If I lived in this story, I would have trouble devoting myself to these petty Gods, and would probably be smited by lightning pretty quickly.
Question: Is the Trojan War a war between mortals or immortals?
"And with each cry he thrust his slashing pike with a fresh new fury. And any Trojan crashing against the beaked ships, torch ablaze in hand, straining to please Hector who urged him on...Ajax ready and waiting there would stab each man with his long, rugged pike" (411). This quote shows two mains things. The first thing is that the Trojans will do everything in their power to please Hector. They walk into their death as they approach the ships to torch them. Torching the ships is the main goal that Hector has set for him men and they will not stop until they please him. The second point is that this shows how Ajax can stay calm and collected while still be filled with such fury as he stabs man after man after man. A skill that Ajax has in battle is that he is stubborn and will stick to something until it is done, and what he is doing is protecting his ships.
"As when some lion overpowers a tireless wild boar up on a mountain summit,battling in all their fury over a little spring of water, both beasts craving to slake their thirst, but the lion beats him down with sheer brute force as the boar fights for breath" (439).
I thought this was a great quote to describe the scene happening between Patroclus and Hector. It is clear that Hector is the lion in the image and is far superior to Patroclus at the time. Hector can see him trying to stagger away from his wounded position and feels he must finish him before his men.
Question: Why did Zeus want them to stay on the boats?
"...'That man who drags Patroclus back to Trojan charioteers, dead as Patroclus is, and makes Great Ajax yield - to him I will give one half the bloody spoils, keep half for myself - his glory will equal mine!' " (Page 450) Musing: I'm surprised that Hector is willing to give so much of his earnings from the war in order to obtain Patroclus's dead body. Glaucus explained that they want Patroclus's body in order to trade it for Sarpedon's body, so that just shows how liked, valued, and honored Sarpedon was.
"Prince Achilles, ranging his ranks of Myrmidons, arrayed them along the shelters, all in armor." (Page 417) Musing: We talked in class about how Achilles is more willing to send his good friend Patroclus to fight the Trojans rather than go himself. I chose this quote because not only did Achilles agree to sending Patroclus, but he also lined up his men, the Myrmidons, and sent them to fight without him, as well. He is very stubborn to continue to be angry at Agamemnon and he is not loyal to the Greeks at all. (Also, side note, this quote was followed by a good example of a very long simile comparing the Myrmidons to wolves attacking a stag, but I deemed it too long to type up.)
Clarifying Question: Zeus knows that, in the end, the Greeks will win, right? Then why does he keep helping the Trojans?
"So let me seize my glory among the Trojans now or i'll spear you too, i'll rip your own sweet life away!" (443)
Musing: After Patrocoles is killed by Euphorbus spear, Euphorbus demands to have Achilles armor, which I believe is his right, since he killed Patrocoles. He doesn't fight for the body because the Euphorbus's body is supposed to be buried as soon as possible because that was the Greeks beliefs. I thought it was interesting to see Euphorbus and Menelaus fight over this because taking the armor of your enemy is normal.
"Apollo had not grudged him all that glory, rousing Hector against him, swift as Ares." (444)
Musing: Menelaus is about to kill Euphorbus because but is not able to because Apollo encourages Hector to continue fighting. I find it odd that the gods would join the fight against the ownership of the armor because in the end it seems like a matter of honor and pride. Menelaus later has trouble deciding whether to leave the armor of Patroclus or continue fighting
Question: Do you think Euphorbus deserves the armor or if Menelaus deserves it even though Euphorbus killed Patroclus?
pg 447 lines 161-162 "Hector--our prince of beauty, in battle all a sham!" Musing: Interesting how Hector is known as the prince of beauty and not as successful in battle as his brother Paris seems to epitomize that description. Paris is always the man to focus on things other than war and shy away from battle. I think Hector is getting a little fed up with the war.
pg 439 lines 976-977 "Poor, doomed…not for all his power could Achilles save you now--" Musing: This passage shows that Achilles really wished that he would be out there fighting, that he could be saving Patroclus. But he has chosen another path and cannot go back on it now. I think Achilles should have always regretted what he has done to his friend, friends and country.
Question: Who would you rather be, Patroclus, Hector, or Achilles?
"pierced the pit of his throat-leaning into it hard, his whole arm's weight in the stroke to drive it home and the point went slicing through the tender neck. He fell with a crash, armor ringing against his ribs, his locks like the Graces' locks splashed with blood, still braided tight with gold and silver clips, pinched in like a wasp's waist. There he lay like an olive slip a farmer rears to strength on a lonely hilltop, drenching it down with water, a fine young stripling tree, and the winds stir it softly, rustling from every side, and it bursts with silver shoots..." Page 444 lines 52-62
•I know this quote is long but I liked this passage because it shows the detail that Homer put into writing the iliad. He uses a great amount of metaphors and similes to express a certain situation. I am a visual learner and can picture things easily so passages like this really strike me. It also makes the book more interesting to read. There is a lot of talk about fighting and death but Homer some how makes every situation unique. Somehow he is able to make death sound so much more thrilling. He could of said he was stabbed in the throat and fell to the ground, instead he carries it on to explain the feelings and pain.
"Never a thought of death weighs down your spirit now, yet death is right beside you..." Page 449 lines 230-31 •Here Zeus is talking to himself and reflecting over Hector. I think In the case of Hector and Achilles both dying I'd rather be Hector. I think it would be extremely difficult living life knowing when and how you were going to die. I think at times it takes away from Achilles and that's why he can act as a coward, maybe hoping he can change the outcome. Hector on the other hand doesn't hold back and he's the one unaware that he will soon die. I do wonder why Zeus seems to take favor over Hector knowing he will die too.
"One thing she never told him-his own mother-what a terrible thing had taken place: his dearest friend-in-arms on earth lay dead." Page 455-56 lines 476-77 Question: Achilles was aware of the prophecy of his death but do the Gods/goddesses have the ability to know how everyone dies? Was his mother aware of how his friend would die?
"Those words stirred within Achilles a deep desire // to grieve for his own father." (24.592-593). I think this might be the first scene where the maniacal behaviors of Achilles are dormant, and he starts to see reason more. I'm not going to say he calmed down, because he weeps profusely in the next several lines, but at least his rage has diminished. He begins to put more thought into his actions, and he thinks about how his actions impact others as well.
"And so the Trojans buried Hector breaker of horses." (24.944). I chose this quote because I think Hector gets too little recognition outside of the Iliad. Way more people know who Achilles is than Hector, and I feel like because of that, Hector seems less of an important character. But reading the Iliad, he is incredibly important in shaping the plot of the Iliad, and has more depth than Achilles.
Question: "Then they collected the white bones of Hector - all his brothers, his friends-in arms, mourning" (24.931-932). The phrasing of this is very peculiar. It almost seems to be foreshadowing the deaths of all the men of Ilium by fire and battle. Is it just written like that because of Homer's style of writing, or is it intended to be foreshadowing?
"Menelaus fierce as a mountain lion... ...their spirit makes them blanch." pg 444 This quote is an extended simile of the fighting strength of Menelaus. Even though he is actually very strong. This shows that no trojan can realistically stand up to menelaus at this time and it shows how the trojans were meant to fall. "So he decreed and the son of cronus... ...gleaming battle gear of achilles." pg 449 This quote is after Hector kills Patroclus and takes Achilles armor from him. He then basically brags about his accomplishment before his army, inspiring them. This shows that the trojans never actually lost hope until Hector is dead. Hector is the fight in Troy and he is the only thing that stops troy from surrendering and forcing Paris to return Helen to her rightful husband.
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ReplyDelete“Menelaus marked it all…plowed through the front to stand astride the body, braced like a mother cow lowing over a calf.”
ReplyDeleteMusing: I think it’s interesting how Menelaus is the one who marks Patroclus’ death. I haven’t really noticed a connection between Menelaus and Achilles. So I’m curious as to why he was the one to step up and defend the body. Is it just because he doesn’t want Achilles to be even more enraged? Or is Menelaus just defending a fellow soldier?
“You don the deathless arms of a great fighter-and all the other fighters tremble before him, true, but you, you killed his comrade, gentle, strong, and against all rights you ripped the immortal armor off his head and shoulders.”
Opinion: I agree with Zeus when he says this. If I were Hector I would definitely also be eager to take the famous armor off of Patroclus. That being said, I think that it’s a foolish thing to do; it outweighs the glory that may come from the actual armor. I think that Hector had to know that killing Patroclus in the first place would seriously anger Achilles. And maybe he was overcome with adrenaline and so bent on getting the armor, but he should have thought about what would happen to him when Achilles sees him wearing his armor. I think that it will have a big consequence.
Discussion question: Why is such a big deal made over Patroclus’ body?
“What can I do? If I leave this splendid gear and desert Patroclus—who fell here fighting, all to redeem my honor— won’t any comrade curse me, seeing me break away? But if I should take on Hector and Hector’s Trojans alone, in single combat—trying to save my pride— won’t they encircle me, one against so many?” (pg. 445)
ReplyDeleteThis reminded me of the discussion we had with Dr. Bass about how leaving a legacy was one of the most important things for the soldiers. Menelaus is torn about what to do after Patroclus died partly because he doesn’t know what will be best for him personally and partly because he doesn’t know what the best decision will be for his army.
“But the will of Zeus will always overpower the will of men” (pg. 448)
I wonder why the gods haven’t done more to end the war at this point. We have seen their influences at times but it seems as though they would be sick of the fighting after 10 years. The soldiers don’t think they have a chance if Zeus isn’t on their side so why doesn’t he just end the war? Zeus always seems worried about disappointing or getting on the wrong side of the other gods but it doesn’t seem like the war will ever end if he doesn’t step in more.
Question: Why do both armies make such a big deal about bringing Patroclus’ body back to their camps? It seems counterproductive to fight and have many more people die over one body. Also, why is it so important to take the armor of fallen soldiers?
Musing: p.442 "so the red-haired captain bestrode Patroclus now, shielding his corpse with spear and round buckler"
ReplyDeleteI have noticed this sort of thing come up in the Iliad a lot, where a man dies and his companions protect his body, and I can't help but question this. Obviously I appreciate that they are upset he is dead and want to honor him, but it seems like a much better choice to protect yourself and continue fighting toward the goal the man died for, but again and again the characters stop to save the corpses of their comrades. And later, Menelaus agonizes over whether to try to kill Hector or to save Patroclus' body. To me, the choice is obvious--fight Hector--but Menelaus is really stumped. I don't understand why they put so much value in a dead body.
Musing: p. 443 "Home he went... and brought no cheer to his loyal, loving wife and devoted parents."
Menelaus says this to bring down Hyperenor, yelling at him for calling Menelaus weak. This quote, basically saying that Hyperenor is not a good husband or son, struck me as out of place with the other taunts, which are all about war and war skills and glories. I thought this was cool because it shows that Menelaus (and, most likely, all the other Greeks) valued being a good family member, as well as being a good warrior. Sometimes I get the impression that the only thing important to these men is killing other men, so it is nice to see them appreciate something nicer, like making their wives happy.
Question: Many men who fought long and hard have died in this book, but none of their deaths were as dramatic or important-seeming as Patroclus'. Almost an entire chapter is dedicated to the scuffle over his body. Why is this? Why is the death of Patroclus a bigger deal than anyone else's?
“But grief bore down on Hector, packing his dark heart as he scanned the battle lines and saw the worst at once…” (pg 445)
ReplyDeleteThis was the first quote (that I remember) that pointed out grief during battle. I know Hector was upset because Euphorbus was killed, but previously when the Trojans and Achaeans were fighting, there was no grief. They grieved when they had time to bury the dead but only ever felt rage when in battle. It made Hector seem a little more human than he had before. Up until that point I thought of him more as a killing machine, not really as a man.
“Quickly, you and Meriones shoulder up the body, carry it off the lines. We’re right behind you fighting the Trojans, fighting this Prince Hector.” (pg 465)
Throughout this entire book the Achaeans have been protecting the body of Patroclus. Even that made it obvious that Patroclus’ death was a bigger deal than all the other deaths. When Ajax and Menelaus made a plan to remove Patroclus’ dead body off the battle field, it solidified that he was a very important part of the Achaean army. I think that’s because he was close friends with Achilles but it still seems like they spent a very long time trying to keep his body safe instead of attacking the Trojans.
I thought the whole point of the Achaeans being in Troy was to fight the Trojans, so why would they spend so much time protecting a dead body instead of fighting? Is it because Patroclus was Achilles’ best friend or because he was an important person to them all?
"There is nothing alive more agonized than man of all that breathe and crawl across the Earth."
ReplyDeletePg. 457
Musing: Although this quote was directed to the immortal horses of the chariot, I think it could apply to Achilles as well. Achilles knows his fate, his death, is inevitable, and all he can do is "breathe and crawl across the Earth." He can't change what's going to happen, unlike Zeus. I also think it's interesting how Zeus admits that he understands that controlling the fate of humans is terrible for them. The gods have the power to protect the humans from battle, or put them in even more danger and the humans themselves can't do anything about it.
"Dear god, enough! Any idiot boy could see how Father Zeus himself supports these Trojans. All weapons land, no matter who flings them, brave fighter or bad--Zeus guides them all to the mark. Ours all clatter to ground."
Pg. 462
Musing: I find it interesting that although the Achaeans know Zeus supports the Trojans, they continue to fight. I thought that once they realized Zeus is on Team Trojan, they would stop fighting as hard. Maybe they wouldn't give up immediately, but I imagine that eventually it would seem almost pointless to keep trying.
Question: Is it their pride that keeps the Achaeans fighting or do they believe they can win?
“Hector, tearing the famous armor off Patroclus, tugged hard at the corpse, mad to hack the head from the neck with bronze and drag the trunk away to glut the dogs of Troy.” (446)
ReplyDeleteMusing: I couldn’t imagine ever going into a war where I was forced to shoot guns at people, killing those who I had never met before without any reason. I could never imagine then, going into a battle where I was forced to slice men down with my own two hands, only a thin piece of metal between us. After all of this, I would never dare to go the man I killed and taught the enemy my stealing his armor as a prize. This disgusts me. It feels gluttonous and evil to do this.
“The deadly Archer--Aenas knew him at once, looking straight in his eyes and the fighter loosed a rousing shout at Hector…” (453)
Musing: Though not an incredibly important moment, I felt it was worth noting that this is a very rare time in the Iliad. In this case, it is an archer who is yelling at a skilled, veteran warrior. Usually, the archers are considered less competent as they stand towards the back and aren’t participating in hand to hand combat. Even more shocking, Aeneas, the archer, is defying Hector, one of the greatest warriors of his time.
Question: Why do you think getting the armor of the person they kill is so important?
"Hungry as wolves that rend and bolt raw flesh, hearts filled with battle frenzy that never dies...belching bloody meat, but the fury, never shaken," (417)
ReplyDeleteMusing: This description really leaves me thinking how the men must have felt on both sides. The wolves in this description are not very strong by themselves, but as a pack they can take down the biggest prey their jaws can bite through. The Greeks were the same way, fabled for their team effort in battle strategy. Their prowess in battle with their phalanx was the reason why the Persians lost so many of their army to the spartans. Their battle strategy involving the individual soldiers working as a unit was so new and revolutionary that it was copied by some of the great empires such as the Macedonians and the Romans.
"all their courage quaked, their columns buckled, thinking swift Achilles had tossed to the winds his hard rage..each Trojan soldier glancing left and right - how could he escape from sudden, plunging death?" (421)
Musing: I think this quote really humanizes the Trojans (antagonists) to the readers. The soldiers think that Achilles has finally showed up to the battlefield. They have heard the tales of his conquest and prowess of battle. Even Hector fears for his life when he thinks about fighting Achilles. The Trojan soldiers know that they will get slaughtered if they try to fight Achilles. They can't even pierce his skin being the demigod he is. They know that their fate in battle is to certain death, and that the tide changes directions when Achilles shows up onto the battlefield.
"A gift of the son of Cronos, Zeus- Apollo too- they brought me down with all their deathless ease, they are the ones who tore the armor off my back." Page 440
ReplyDeleteHere Patroclus is dying but he won't admit death because of Hector. He wants to save his pride an integrity by telling Hector it was not him that killed him. Patroclus has reached an ultimate defeat but won't admit defeat by Hector. In the Iliad so much surrounds around pride. The people are motivated by their social standing, by their relationships with the gods, by competition. Who can rise to the occasion, who can kill, who can win. In addition to this he tells Hector he will soon die. "Take it to heart, I urge you, you too, you won't live long yourself, I sweat." Page 440 Why does Patroclus predict this? How does Patroclus know?
"But the power of Zeus will always over power the will of men, Zeus who strikes dear in even the bravest man of war and tears away his triumph, all in a lighting flash." Page 448
Zeus has all this power but doesn't seem to use it. He can do what ever he wants, control any man. Why does he let them fight for so long? So many people die and the battle is so long and tedious, lasting for a total of 10 years. Couldn't Zeus or the other gods just influenced the war to end the way they wanted? The gods have so much power. The mortals look up to them with such admiration and respect, in an unworldly manner. Why did Zeus not control the war more? The Trojans could've won right away. In the end the Trojans didn't even win. Didn't Zeus know that was going to happen? Why didnt Zeus stop this?
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ReplyDelete"I'll strap on the brave Achilles' armor, burnished armor I stripped from strong Patroclus when I killed him!" p.448 line 210
ReplyDeleteOpinion: I think it is very odd that someone would wear the armor of someone they had killed. I wonder whether it is to represent géras or because they prefer the armor. It is also strange that Patroclus wore Achilles' armor at all and I did not entirely understand the reasoning behind it. Either this is an odd custom or they particularly like his unique armor, which is complimented frequently.
"Ajax [...] speared him at close range through the bronze-cheeked helmet, the horsehair crest cracked wide open around the point, smashed by the massive spear and hand that drove it. His brains burst from the wound in sprays of blood, soaking the weapon's socket..." p.452 line 337
Connection: I thought that this was a very fitting exemplification of all of the battle scenes in the Iliad. It also connected to the detail that we see in the rest of the book. Expressions and epithets are added on to names and odd details are mentioned to describe things, such as the helmet. The gory illustration connects to the rest of the book because it is a classic type of detailed description that we often come across.
Question: Why is it so important to protect Patroclus' body and why is Achilles' armor so important to all of them?
P. 333: "Bird Signs! Fight for your country––that is the best, the only omen!"
ReplyDeleteI was curious as to whether Hector would be punished for this line, as he is going against the sign from the Gods, or if he would commended for bravely, and selflessly fighting for his side. It is interesting that in this society, the thing that is most respected by humans is courage, while in today's society, courage seems to have little do with most of our lives. Moderation, and consistency are qualities that are much more valued now a days. Courage is often simply viewed as stupid or reckless behavior. Their society seems more equivalent to teenagers' behavior now a days: making dangerous choices, narcissism, and feelings of invincibility.
P. 333: "You tell me to put my trust in birds, flying off on their long wild wings? Never."
Hector's point of view actually made sense to me here, in some ways. It's stupid of him to go against a clear sign of the Gods. However, the Gods seem to be no different than humans in terms of rash decision making, petty quarrels, and being prays of their own emotions and temptations. The only difference to me seems to their immortality and superhuman powers. If one has observed the Gods, the powerful "signs", pep talks, and advantages they have given to each side have seemed to just about even out. It almost seems as though the Trojan is more a war between gods than one between humans. The humans are really just puppets in a lot of ways. If I lived in this story, I would have trouble devoting myself to these petty Gods, and would probably be smited by lightning pretty quickly.
Question: Is the Trojan War a war between mortals or immortals?
"And with each cry he thrust his slashing pike with a fresh new fury. And any Trojan crashing against the beaked ships, torch ablaze in hand, straining to please Hector who urged him on...Ajax ready and waiting there would stab each man with his long, rugged pike" (411).
ReplyDeleteThis quote shows two mains things. The first thing is that the Trojans will do everything in their power to please Hector. They walk into their death as they approach the ships to torch them. Torching the ships is the main goal that Hector has set for him men and they will not stop until they please him. The second point is that this shows how Ajax can stay calm and collected while still be filled with such fury as he stabs man after man after man. A skill that Ajax has in battle is that he is stubborn and will stick to something until it is done, and what he is doing is protecting his ships.
"As when some lion overpowers a tireless wild boar up on a mountain summit,battling in all their fury over a little spring of water, both beasts craving to slake their thirst, but the lion beats him down with sheer brute force as the boar fights for breath" (439).
I thought this was a great quote to describe the scene happening between Patroclus and Hector. It is clear that Hector is the lion in the image and is far superior to Patroclus at the time. Hector can see him trying to stagger away from his wounded position and feels he must finish him before his men.
Question: Why did Zeus want them to stay on the boats?
"...'That man who drags Patroclus back to Trojan charioteers, dead as Patroclus is, and makes Great Ajax yield - to him I will give one half the bloody spoils, keep half for myself - his glory will equal mine!' " (Page 450)
ReplyDeleteMusing: I'm surprised that Hector is willing to give so much of his earnings from the war in order to obtain Patroclus's dead body. Glaucus explained that they want Patroclus's body in order to trade it for Sarpedon's body, so that just shows how liked, valued, and honored Sarpedon was.
"Prince Achilles, ranging his ranks of Myrmidons, arrayed them along the shelters, all in armor." (Page 417)
Musing: We talked in class about how Achilles is more willing to send his good friend Patroclus to fight the Trojans rather than go himself. I chose this quote because not only did Achilles agree to sending Patroclus, but he also lined up his men, the Myrmidons, and sent them to fight without him, as well. He is very stubborn to continue to be angry at Agamemnon and he is not loyal to the Greeks at all. (Also, side note, this quote was followed by a good example of a very long simile comparing the Myrmidons to wolves attacking a stag, but I deemed it too long to type up.)
Clarifying Question: Zeus knows that, in the end, the Greeks will win, right? Then why does he keep helping the Trojans?
"So let me seize my glory among the Trojans now or i'll spear you too, i'll rip your own sweet life away!" (443)
ReplyDeleteMusing: After Patrocoles is killed by Euphorbus spear, Euphorbus demands to have Achilles armor, which I believe is his right, since he killed Patrocoles. He doesn't fight for the body because the Euphorbus's body is supposed to be buried as soon as possible because that was the Greeks beliefs. I thought it was interesting to see Euphorbus and Menelaus fight over this because taking the armor of your enemy is normal.
"Apollo had not grudged him all that glory, rousing Hector against him, swift as Ares." (444)
Musing: Menelaus is about to kill Euphorbus because but is not able to because Apollo encourages Hector to continue fighting. I find it odd that the gods would join the fight against the ownership of the armor because in the end it seems like a matter of honor and pride. Menelaus later has trouble deciding whether to leave the armor of Patroclus or continue fighting
Question: Do you think Euphorbus deserves the armor or if Menelaus deserves it even though Euphorbus killed Patroclus?
pg 447 lines 161-162
ReplyDelete"Hector--our prince of beauty, in battle all a sham!"
Musing: Interesting how Hector is known as the prince of beauty and not as successful in battle as his brother Paris seems to epitomize that description. Paris is always the man to focus on things other than war and shy away from battle. I think Hector is getting a little fed up with the war.
pg 439 lines 976-977
"Poor, doomed…not for all his power could Achilles save you now--"
Musing: This passage shows that Achilles really wished that he would be out there fighting, that he could be saving Patroclus. But he has chosen another path and cannot go back on it now. I think Achilles should have always regretted what he has done to his friend, friends and country.
Question: Who would you rather be, Patroclus, Hector, or Achilles?
"pierced the pit of his throat-leaning into it hard, his whole arm's weight in the stroke to drive it home and the point went slicing through the tender neck. He fell with a crash, armor ringing against his ribs, his locks like the Graces' locks splashed with blood, still braided tight with gold and silver clips, pinched in like a wasp's waist. There he lay like an olive slip a farmer rears to strength on a lonely hilltop, drenching it down with water, a fine young stripling tree, and the winds stir it softly, rustling from every side, and it bursts with silver shoots..." Page 444 lines 52-62
ReplyDelete•I know this quote is long but I liked this passage because it shows the detail that Homer put into writing the iliad. He uses a great amount of metaphors and similes to express a certain situation. I am a visual learner and can picture things easily so passages like this really strike me. It also makes the book more interesting to read. There is a lot of talk about fighting and death but Homer some how makes every situation unique. Somehow he is able to make death sound so much more thrilling. He could of said he was stabbed in the throat and fell to the ground, instead he carries it on to explain the feelings and pain.
"Never a thought of death weighs down your spirit now, yet death is right beside you..." Page 449 lines 230-31
•Here Zeus is talking to himself and reflecting over Hector. I think In the case of Hector and Achilles both dying I'd rather be Hector. I think it would be extremely difficult living life knowing when and how you were going to die. I think at times it takes away from Achilles and that's why he can act as a coward, maybe hoping he can change the outcome. Hector on the other hand doesn't hold back and he's the one unaware that he will soon die. I do wonder why Zeus seems to take favor over Hector knowing he will die too.
"One thing she never told him-his own mother-what a terrible thing had taken place: his dearest friend-in-arms on earth lay dead." Page 455-56 lines 476-77
Question: Achilles was aware of the prophecy of his death but do the Gods/goddesses have the ability to know how everyone dies? Was his mother aware of how his friend would die?
"Those words stirred within Achilles a deep desire // to grieve for his own father." (24.592-593). I think this might be the first scene where the maniacal behaviors of Achilles are dormant, and he starts to see reason more. I'm not going to say he calmed down, because he weeps profusely in the next several lines, but at least his rage has diminished. He begins to put more thought into his actions, and he thinks about how his actions impact others as well.
ReplyDelete"And so the Trojans buried Hector breaker of horses." (24.944). I chose this quote because I think Hector gets too little recognition outside of the Iliad. Way more people know who Achilles is than Hector, and I feel like because of that, Hector seems less of an important character. But reading the Iliad, he is incredibly important in shaping the plot of the Iliad, and has more depth than Achilles.
Question: "Then they collected the white bones of Hector - all his brothers, his friends-in arms, mourning" (24.931-932). The phrasing of this is very peculiar. It almost seems to be foreshadowing the deaths of all the men of Ilium by fire and battle. Is it just written like that because of Homer's style of writing, or is it intended to be foreshadowing?
"Menelaus fierce as a mountain lion... ...their spirit makes them blanch."
ReplyDeletepg 444
This quote is an extended simile of the fighting strength of Menelaus. Even though he is actually very strong. This shows that no trojan can realistically stand up to menelaus at this time and it shows how the trojans were meant to fall.
"So he decreed and the son of cronus... ...gleaming battle gear of achilles."
pg 449
This quote is after Hector kills Patroclus and takes Achilles armor from him. He then basically brags about his accomplishment before his army, inspiring them. This shows that the trojans never actually lost hope until Hector is dead. Hector is the fight in Troy and he is the only thing that stops troy from surrendering and forcing Paris to return Helen to her rightful husband.